Hello. You’re listening to the K-12 tech podcast, bringing you insights into the world of education technology. Stay tuned as we discuss the past, the present, and most importantly, the future of technology in our schools. Marlo, Thank you for being on the second episode of the Origins podcast. Marlo is that full name.
So, my full first name. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was named after Marlo Thomas originally. Awesome. But strangely enough, my parents realize afterwards that my name is half my mother’s. Half my father’s. So my mother’s name is Margaret. My father’s name is Lauren. So. Two for one.
I love that. I love that. So, on the Origins podcast, what we try to cover is specifically a CTO or tech director’s journey to how they got to where they are now. And for a lot of people, it could feel like a daunting journey. I think your story, in particular, I’m really interested to hear. So, to start out, the first question I have is, when did you know you even wanted to go into education? When was that turning point for you?
I would say probably as long as I was playing, I was usually the teacher, you know, probably early age like three, four or five years old. Now we say, I was already showing examples of leadership at that age. But back then I was bossy. Right. So for a girl back then, so, but no, I knew I wanted to be a teacher early on and really wanted to do that most of my life.
And then when I was in college, North Carolina had a scholarship called the Teaching Fellows. And so I applied for that and got that. And then, you know, nothing like having free tuition for college, especially now knowing I have a child going to school and I’m going to be paying tuition. Yeah. It’s a little bit more appreciative now of that. But yeah, I knew early on I wanted to be a teacher and thought for sure I would do that my whole life.
That’s awesome. I think specifically for teaching, there are a lot of people who just felt like called into that and wanting to, like, really change the fabric of education for young students.
Yeah, I think nowadays less people are being called because we know the trouble that the education field is going through right now. And so I think less people are called, but I do think it has to be a calling. At this stage.
What can you give me a few examples of what you would say, like are like hindering people in feeling called an education now than maybe in the past?
Yeah, I think obviously the number one is salary and teacher. Most of our teachers now barely make a living wage, so I think salary is certainly one of those things. And I would also say the politics and education. And you know, when I went into education. Teachers were revered, and teachers were great parents and supported teachers. Now, teachers go through a lot more now than they ever did when I was when I started out as a teacher.
Do you think that’s all people’s voice, people being able to make a voice louder now with like social media emailing? Okay.
Yeah, I do, definitely.
Yeah. Because it’s not just like, oh, a parent stopping by and saying, Hey, look, I don’t like this. It’s now just like you can really stir up probably a lot of drama.
But the rules of engagement have changed in general for education. So I think there’s I think there’s probably a lot of reasons why that is the case right now. And of course, we’re all feeling it now with education shortages in teaching and leadership all all around.
Yeah. So going into college where you go to college, like.
I went to Elon College, which is now Elon University, which is in Elon, North Carolina. So about 30 minutes outside of Greensboro, an hour out of Raleigh.
How big of a school is that?
Back then, it was a fairly small school, but now, as I said, they’re a university, and I’m proud. I live 5 minutes from the university myself now. So it’s a great school, and very proud of it.
That’s awesome. So in college, obviously, you’re an education major. Like, what stuff were you interested in? Like, was there anything in particular you felt yourself like moving towards in, like learning during that process?
When I was in college, I thought all I was going to be was a teacher. And I said that wrong, and I want to correct myself. Okay. What I thought I wanted to be was the teacher for the rest of my life because I thought the teachers were the highest level of of calling that you could have.
And so I really wasn’t looking outside of that during that period of time. My only debate at that point in time was what age group and what subjects do I want to teach? I actually went into teaching and into college as a double history, an English major going to teach high school. Yeah, and that was because I had two amazing teachers in high school, English and history, who really made that come alive. For me. What I learn very quickly is I am very much a little kid person, and I, you know, so I ended up teaching kindergarten and first grade. And I love that age group is still today.
So what about that age group did you really like comparatively to the older age group?
Early literacy and early school experiences set the tone for kids at that age. So at that age, students still love their teachers. They also need care and conversation and just exposure to life and manners and respect and all the things that we don’t really get into much anymore. But just understanding how to socialize with one another and how to talk to one another.
And I just really enjoy little kids because they are great storytellers and sometimes, those stories go on for a very long time. But, otherwise, they’re just fun to have.
Yeah. Do you think, and you may have you may have tapped onto this a little bit, but do you think if a child has a really rough experience in those first years, kindergarten, first grade, it like impacts how they look at it? Oh, absolutely. The rest of the time.
I mean, we have history of that. I think there’s research and I can’t, off the top of my head, quote the research. But even just having one teacher or one adult that negatively affects a life can really make a huge difference if it you know, if that’s the case that kids closed their minds out to school, they closed their minds out to a lot of things.
On the contrary, when adults take an interest in kids and make them feel seen and heard and understood, then, you know, there’s a lot more things that can happen to benefit kids. So, unfortunately, everything is an impact, whether that’s, you know, teaching or parenting. As a parent myself, I can speak to that as well.
Yeah, I can speak to that personally. So, like I, I was always like very, very energetic. I’ll say that maybe not hyper-energetic and kindergarten first grade. I remember hating because it was like.
Sit in a seat.
Sit in a seat. This is how you learn and everything. And I hated school. I hated school. And then I had a really good string of three teachers that were patient with me and cared. And they, like, I don’t know, you just felt loved as a student. And it, like, completely turned me around. And I, like, enjoyed learning more, and I just really appreciated that.
And I think if I would have had another couple of years of just being, and I understand as a teacher, when you have kids that are difficult, like you have to start a whole group of kids, but that could have drastically changed my education, like for the rest of it.
Well, the truth of the matter is everybody’s a handful, but you have to understand what the needs are of each child. I had a my son had a teacher early in his life who he and a couple other boys were very active. And it wasn’t that they were misbehaving. They were just active. And not, to your point, not willing to sit in seats and remove had movement needs.
And he despised that class. Yeah, but the next year’s teacher actually had a space for him. When he needed to get up and move. He she let him know when you need to move, here’s the space that you can move. And to this day, he still adores that teacher because he let her. She understood and recognized what he needed and then met that need.
Yeah, I love that. If I would have had that early on, just be like, hey, I feel like because I talk to my kids about this because I want them to feel like they’re heard and they understand I can relate with them, but I tell them like there was a time where I would have been labeled maybe as a bad kid, but it truly was like, I they’re like, Sit down, keep your hands.
Like, you know, basically, like, keep your hands on the table. It’s like, I couldn’t physically do it. And it’s hard to explain that to people. And I think teachers can identify, and we have a lot more research now.
We do.
You know, than probably back then. Um, but how that can drastically change someone’s outlook on that.
So absolutely.
That’s incredible. So you’re a kindergarten teacher. Why don’t you walk me through the first couple of years of that and then how you started transitioning into different.
So I started as a kindergarten teacher and then took my first class up with me or a lot of my first class up with me to first grade. So I did kindergarten for a year, and then I did first grade for several. And I’m going to show my age at the time we were just getting computers in schools, so the Apple two E after CS, you know, back in the day, we were just now getting labs of those the Internet was just AOL had just kind of started in that process.
And so the school district I work for at that time started requiring some technology classes. And, I went into a hyper studio class that really is showing my age now. If, you know, at hyper-adult, it’s like the early stages of PowerPoint. So it was a card deck, basically like PowerPoint, but a hyper studio. And I went from like, I immediately loved it, like initially just absolutely adored it and then decided that, you know, I had a friend who taught the class, and then she’s like, Well, why don’t you sub for me and teach the class some? And so I started teaching some of the technology workshops for the district.
And how many years of teaching are you into at this point?
I think I was in three or four at this point. Um hum. And so I really started to, you know, where I have a passion for education, but what I found is I had a proclivity for technology. Yeah. And so I decided I wanted to combine the two. And around that time the district started having technology teachers. And so I went to a school, a different school, and taught technology for a couple of years, worked for a phenomenal title, one school, and Title one schools do not get the credit that they deserve because there is not a harder group of teachers than those teachers. I will tell you.
Can you explain really quick what a Title one school is?
Sure. So our Title one schools are usually schools that have low socioeconomic status. So students who are coming from poverty quite often, and so we spend a lot of time working to meet the needs of kids. And I worked with an exceptional group of people who did that. And so I I’m I’m blessed to have spent just a little bit of time with those folks in that role because you do have so much.
You don’t have it’s not typical of of all schools, but quite often you don’t have is you don’t have volunteers who are in the classroom all the time. And teachers are determined and have that passion for meeting the needs of kids. And so sometimes you have to do a lot more to make sure those needs are met. And so just a great group of teachers that work in the school I worked at specifically.
So being a technology teacher, what I mean, that’s very early on you’re talking about even something I never even heard before. What are you teaching? Like what level are you teaching?
Word processing, databases, spreadsheets. You know, it was the early days, and back then, it wasn’t even Microsoft. It was Apple works and class works. And so we taught a lot of of that work. And, you know, nothing nothing beats a bunch of kids who.
Oregon Trail.
Training. No, you can do that though. I have a funny story about that later I can share with you. But yeah some of the Mac software that you would play with, certainly Oregon Trail was part of that. But you know, nothing like kids learning how to a change, a font change a color, and then how to have it read aloud to you elementary kids, always great.
Every year, at least one-third grader would write something an inappropriate word and have it read it aloud. So I always had always had to have them.
But you can say, you can say.
It if you want. No, that’s okay. But from that perspective, that’s really kind of what I was teaching for a few years.
That’s awesome. So, I mean, you were doing that in elementary school. I’m guessing it was more in a computer lab setting.
It was. It was.
And was that like similarly like you were like one teacher for one age group, or were you basically like the lab?
Was the lab and all the class I worked in like a special. So I was like with art, music, P.E., I was another place that everybody attended once a week. I’d see them each.
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So that’s obviously three or four years. That’s very early on into a teaching career to like start.
I’m now in my sixth and seventh year at this point in time doing that. So then I the district started a technology facilitator position for the district, providing training for schools. So I took on that role for a few years and then took a detour for a couple of years and worked with the curriculum department in math, science, and Social Studies.
I was their lead teacher for elementary and those topics and then went back to technology because I still love it and, you know, kind of led the all of the elementary schools at that point in time. All the training, but also all the technical aspects. So I had a team of technicians that I worked with at that point in time to solve that.
So obviously, these are these jobs opening up, and then people are saying you should go apply, or are you the one seeking them out? I think that’s that’s a lot of what we’re trying to tackle on this on this series is was this something where people identified that as a talent that you had, or was that you seeking those out and applying and going after those positions?
I’d say probably for most of it was me applying. Yeah. You know, I think part of what people don’t necessarily pay attention to is what’s out there and then being willing to give it a shot. Right. So, you know, I wasn’t planning to go into curriculum, but I saw there was a job opening, and I was like, as the subjects I really like, so maybe I’ll throw my name in the hat and then got the role.
So sometimes you just have to see the open doors and recognize that maybe it’s something you’re interested in. I do think there’s a little faith that has to come from that too. Is know that when you don’t get something, you know, it’s just wasn’t meant to be.
Yeah, I hear that story a lot because we work with tons of different tech departments, so like, Oh, why didn’t you put your name in the hat for for this position or that position? And a reply I got a lot was, well, I had applied for something similar, and I didn’t get it. And it’s some people give up at that.
Yeah. I don’t understand that aspect because I do think I mean I got into being a CTO late in my career. Like my career was a long, you know, I see people now in their twenties being technology directors and CTOs, and I’m thinking how, how wonderful, right? Because now we have them for a good bit of time. Man was later in my career, you know, my last five years of my career when I took over that role.
So I think it’s I think you just have to be willing to see it. No, no, if it’s something you’re interested in. Right. But because I don’t, I definitely don’t think somebody should not apply unless it’s something that just doesn’t interest them. But it never hurts. And I tell them I used to tell my team all the time, everybody can use a little interviewing practice.
Yeah.
So it’s always you know, just go into it with an open mind.
Is there a characteristic if you’re, let’s say you’re a teacher or someone going in, applying for a new job inside of the district that isn’t necessarily a teacher? Is there a characteristic that you feel like superintendents or CEOs of a school are like looking for when they’re hiring? Is it confidence? Is it the focus on like being education first?
So I know for a lot of people I might feel like I just don’t have what it takes, or people who might be really good but are really timid and don’t know how to prepare for that.
Yeah, I think it depends on the role, right? So if you’re a teacher, obviously you got like kids. I mean that sounds like basic, but we get people who don’t like kids who are in education. So I think the first thing we’re looking for is people who actually like students and like working with students. Yeah, I think that’s an important characteristic.
And then I think it depends on where you are, right? So I think there are a lot of people who hire for skills. I don’t believe in hiring necessarily for skills. I believe in soft skills. So I want to know that you collaborate. I want to know that you can problem solve. I want to know that you’re a decent human being and then you get along with others.
I can teach you the other stuff, and we can we can work your way up. It just depends on how technical a position is and whether, you know, there are requirements around those types of things. But I would much rather hire somebody who is a decent human being that I can train and is willing to learn versus somebody who thinks they know it all and has experience.
Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more on that. The soft skills are an aspect you might agree with. This is someone’s ability to teach themselves how to do things so valuable, so important, and then their ability to work together as a team and to, like I always tell my team the three words that you never say to me is that’s not my job. Because if you’re being asked like your job is to be part of a team and to make sure that the.
Other duties as assigned everybody has it as their job descriptions of anything can be given to you for.
Sure. Yeah. And you’re right that the people who can work together as a team and then take on responsibility and do it to the best of their ability. You can teach people like that; people who already know it can teach, correct? Great.
Correct.
That’s so good. Um, can you walk me through this is an untraditional question. Can you walk me through a give me an example of just like a really hard day like those early on careers in technology, maybe a day that like, just like, just did not work out or just, like, left you down?
Um, Olive Cove. It probably would be my, you know, some of my, my days that I think about from the technical perspective, although I would say that most of the days I’ve had that were hard had nothing to do with the technology, they had everything to do with human response. MM. Right. So sometimes that human response was mine and sometimes it was the human response of others.
So, so COVID and, and, and trying to meet the needs of kids and having, having families feel entitled to, to more was hard when you’re trying to meet the needs of kids and families who think that they they are because they have a higher salary or higher things that they deserve more than others. But I’ll also say, like, you know, under my realm as CTO, I was, and I did this in multiple positions as well, I managed our libraries and defending a child’s right to read.
Sounds like you would not have to do that. But there was a lot of my career where that was the case allowing kids to read what they wanted to read and allowing our staff to help students be seen, heard, and understood. Through that process. Those were the hardest days. So usually around things outside of the actual, um, technical part of my job, more the adaptive part of my job.
Yeah, I kind of wanted you to touch base a little bit on that. We talked about that earlier today about just dealing now dealing with parents, and I guess I’m assuming probably school board members, maybe even other chiefs in the school district, that pressure. And can you talk a little bit about what you did there? And then, you know, what was really, really challenging about that aspect?
Sure. So as I said, I’m kind of a collaborative collaborator by nature. I really find, and it’s part of it’s my being an extrovert, right? I get energy out of other people and working with others and the whole process. I get a lot of energy out of process versus sitting behind my desk and doing nothing by myself or doing a lot of things by myself.
So part of it for me has been wanting to collaborate with others who don’t necessarily want to collaborate. Yeah, and some of the struggle was leading up and leading across. I was very fortunate in that I worked with a great school board who was very responsive and very respectful to the work that my team and I did.
But, you know, all the other pressures around that, you know, upper management, leadership are a struggle, and they drain your energy and sometimes make you question the job you’re doing in the first place. And you have to kind of re-refocus yourself and ground yourself and the people that you work with and the work that you’re doing or have done to really kind of to understand that because, you know, teaching is not an area where you go in, and you’ve accomplished something every day.
Yeah.
Right. You don’t see quite often in teaching or in leadership, you don’t necessarily see something getting accomplished every single day. It’s over time that you see the effects of the work that you do. So sometimes you just have to ground yourself in, Hey, today I got an inbox so zero I answered everybody who needed answering. Or sometimes it’s look back at all the amazing work that your team has done over the last six months and celebrate that with them.
So it’s, you know, that’s how you have to kind of get around some of the harder days. Yeah.
So I mean, a massive accomplishment in your career. You were the CTO of the 15th largest school district in the United States going from a school. You talked a little bit about your progression to that. Can you can you walk through like the steps because you said you later on in your career, you became the CTO?
Sure. So teacher, curricular teacher, tech facilitator, curriculum, and then lead technology person for elementary. And then I left the district I was in, which had about at that time about 35 schools, and I went to a district about an hour west of me, and they had 80 schools. So double it, double what I had. And I was their instructional technology director there and focused directly on instructional technology.
I worked with an amazing I.T director and a data director. There probably one of my favorite places I’ve ever worked. And just having people who were like minded and were willing to kind of all roll up your sleeves and get work done. So I did that for about five years and then switched for a brief, and everybody should have a blip on their resume.
This one was mine. I went for five months with the district as their instructional technology person and was being recruited by Wake at the time, so I didn’t end up staying long, ended up jumping, but I’ve done instructional technology in library media pretty much in the three jobs outside of Wake. And then I was recruited to wake as their instructional technology in library media and did that for five years before I became CTO.
Yeah, I would love to hear what is the difference between what you were doing with them before and then moving to the CTO role? Obviously, moving maybe more into a technical role where you’re dealing with maybe more critical issues. Can you talk a little bit about that and then the challenges with that transition?
Sure. So I had a small instructional technology team, and we were really close-knit group when I was when I was awake. And we did a lot of the training, a lot of the working with our academics team and other teams, making sure people were getting their literacy, their digital literacy skills up. But when I took over the technology department, all technology services division, it was a huge step, and I don’t think I appreciated that step at the time where as I had become the face of technology in my instructional technology role now, I had a whole lot of folks who were relying on me to make sure the mission of the entire department was being seen, heard and understood. Right. So at the time, I had about 120 staff. That plus the contractors and I ended up when I took over is when I left as CTO. I had about 167 at that time.
But contractors in addition, I think the hardest thing for me was knowing I come from an instructional background and getting the respect of and understanding the technical. So I’ll put this in, and we’ll make coson The consortium of School Networking has their framework of essential skills for CTOs, and they have broken into basically three areas. You have the managing the technical environment, managing the education environment, and you have the leadership and vision part of that because you really have to have all three areas in order to be a CTO.
I had the leadership and I had the instructional, and I had the technical, but I had to earn my chops, right? So there were a lot of folks who came in and said, I don’t you know, she doesn’t know anything about this. And so really trying to to listen, respect the knowledge of others, but also trust and verify when needed.
Yeah. So I’m just in my career, and they add text and edtech industry. For the last 11 years, I’ve seen a massive transition from going from a heavier weight on being technical to more. You’re seeing people who start out as teachers working their way up because there is like a sense of like you’ve been in the trenches and, you know, the actual small issues, and it’s important to have that technical side.
And there are some really, really great tech directors that maybe weren’t teachers previously, But seeing a lot more of that movement up in the military is something very similar. So I had the opportunity just to direct commission, which is where you can just go in, do ROTC, and then you become an officer. But what people not in the military know is if you don’t go through basic training and it like it’s like a stigma, it’s like essentially of like, you haven’t gone through this.
You haven’t earned your stripes.
Yeah, your mental break. And that’s why I went down. That is because it’s so funny, because I serve with some great officers who are West Point grads and everything else. But it’s like there is stuff said behind your back. It’s like, Oh, you didn’t go through all that. Like, you’re missing that aspect, that ability to relate at a lower level than you would be without that experience.
Well, I do think too, in, you know, part of the course in leadership surveys shows that we’re getting more and more CTOs coming from the educational background. And I think a large part of that is, is education doesn’t pay well. We’ve already kind of addressed that. And so a lot of folks who have high technical skills can go work in the technical field, in private industry, and make double, triple what they make in education.
So I think we’re seeing an increase in the education because we’re not willing to pay for for higher level folks. And not that I, you know, I’m an educator by trade, and I actually think having an educator in that role is hugely important because, as my superintendent told me when she hired me, I’m sending a message that teaching and learning is our business. Our business is not technology. It’s not the ones and zeros. It’s not the cables. It’s not any of that. Our business is educating a child every day, every child every day. And so if we don’t do that, then then we’re not completing the mission of the work that we do.
Well, you had talked earlier today about burnout, and that’s that’s something I hear from superintendents, tech directors like this isn’t a 9 to 5 job now. And on top of being able that’s I feel like I’ve seen a lot of CTOs go out to the private sector because like, hey, I can work Monday through Friday 8 to 4.
Or come home, work.
From home and get paid more, and I don’t have to deal with the stress. Is there any sort of change in education that’s helping to combat that of like having a better work-life balance? Or is it do you feel like it’s getting harder?
I think education as an industry is trying, just like all the other industries. Right. We’re talking now about, you know, we’re having conversations now that we’ve never had before about wellness, both for our students and for our staff. You know, there are places where folks are looking at different ways to help, you know, staff with that balance.
Ultimately, though, I think it’s always up to the supervisor and how that plays out, and whether that’s a superintendent or a tech director or a principal or whoever it is, they make the biggest impact when it comes to work-life balance, because they’re the ones who should know their employees and know when they need and know how to help them when they when they’re facing that burnout.
Yeah, I think there’s two sides of the coin with that. And, you know, I’ve had a plethora of leaders throughout my military, and then business career is there’s two sides. There’s the leaders that they work themselves with, the banks like, I want to show you how to like work hard. But that typically I’ve seen, causes a culture of everyone else feels like they have to do the same, like first in, first out, and then there’s the leaders who are really disciplined and organized.
There’s like, Hey, look, I’m going to go spend time with my family because that’s important. And you guys should do that too.
I think I think there’s a happy mix in there that you’re not including. So I do believe, and hopefully, my team will support me in this so that when we needed to get work done, I was there in the center of it and I was trying to help. You know as well as all of my leaders in our division, because we all pitch in, and we all do an all hands on deck kind of approach. But I also very much so believe in a family-friendly approach. And when you need time, you take time. So we’ve had, you know, in the time I was leading, we had multiple folks with cancer or with parents who were ill or kids who had issues. And the answer is always go be with your family, go take care of that.
We will find we will be fine we’ll take care of whatever is sitting there, and please don’t worry about it. And the only way people believe that is if you do it yourself. And so I am a very proud momma. And I let them know every time I was taking time to go be with my son or my husband, or if we had something going on with family. I think you have to be vulnerable and show that to your staff in order for people to feel like it’s safe and okay to do that.
I fully agree with that. That’s awesome. Personal question for you. Sure. You kind of tapped a little bit on mental health. What is your go to like describe to me maybe rough day or like what do you do to recharge? What are some disciplines that you have set in place for you to get that like a much needed like mental break and mental build?
Yeah, I think it’s changing over time. So I’d say to you before COVID, I looked a lot like Olivia Pope. I don’t know if you’re ever a scandal watcher, but she always had a glass of wine and popcorn. That was usually my go-to. And so I used to love that. But since COVID, that’s not been the case.
And so, for me, spending time with family or friends has become something I’ve appreciated far more in this. And in the last few years, I won’t lie. I love spa treatment. So when I can find time to go do something like that, that’s always on my list. And right now, since retirement, one of the things I do most is try to focus on my own health and look inward, rather than trying to look for external things to do that. So I’m trying to eat right. Although my lunch today did not show that it’s okay. And, you know, trying to exercise more and trying to get my health back on track. Right. Because I think quite often when we’re going through burnout, our health is the first thing we kind of let slide. And I know I am certainly guilty of that.
So kind of that’s been one of my biggest things in the last few months is to really try to start getting a handle on all of that.
So yeah, that’s great. I mean, similarly myself, you know, going through like leadership, owning a business, and I think the hard thing about education is it’s not like there is a seasonality to it of like spikes and, and it’s sometimes hard to be disciplined in the day to day. And that’s one area that’s been so important is that all of those little decisions made makes a big difference on your mental dexterity and your ability to really be present and be mentally sharp during those times.
Absolutely.
Absolutely amazing. So you said COVID was a low point. You’re a CTO of a massive district and then eventually going to where you are now. Can you talk about that mental shift, that kind of the decision to step away from working directly with the district, and what you’re kind of looking forward to in this like next step?
Sure. So, let me edit my statement a little bit. And that covered literally in this sound so cheesy was the best of times and the worst of times, right? So I have never been prouder to be a CTO of any district, but specifically ours as the work that my team did during that time period, our team came together and really and truly serve the community in more than just devices, but vaccination clinics and home visits to make sure kids had what they needed. You know, there was so many things that my team did that were just, well, we’re spectacular, and I don’t have another word for it. So in many ways it was one of the best times. But I think what you’ll hear from most tech directors or CTOs is that really anybody during that period of time is there was a bit of adrenaline for the first year.
Right? That first year, we, you know, we went at it like gangbusters trying to make sure everybody had what they needed. I remember multiple nights where I was there until late at night, but that’s what we did. And then the longer we were in line, we were in COVID. You know, at the beginning, there was all this grace like everybody, you know, everybody was scared, everybody was kind.
And then about six months into COVID, everybody kind of turned right. Grace was no longer something that people were giving. And so I think at that point in time, you know, people were tired. We had been working hours upon hours upon hours. And then you get from there, you get we kind of switch somewhere in the middle of COVID to absolute anti-education vitriol that’s happening now, where teachers are the worse educations, the worse We’re doing all these bad things to kids.
And I put all that in quotations because we’re doing none of that right. But no longer was teaching an honorable place to be. And everybody now, because we all live through COVID, everybody now is it is an educator and knows what’s best for everybody and anything. And so I think what we’ve seen over time is huge amount of folks that are retiring or are leaving the career. There was a huge number of teachers who went to Ed Tech, right? They just they didn’t they no longer had the the wherewithal to continue to take the abuse and the time, especially those teachers who had families of their own that they were trying to manage at that same time. And I was no different. Right. So I think I finally came to a point where I had had multiple people tell me that I either didn’t look well, that I could tell in my own behavior that I was frustrated and angry all the time, not with parents, not with people, but I could feel it inside.
And then that’s when I thought, you know, I don’t know that I’m doing anybody any good, but specifically, I’m not doing myself any good. And so that’s why I, you know, that’s when I finally just made the decision to step away and from K12, specifically K-12 public. Not that I’m not going to stay in the education field, but I needed to stop the 86-hour weeks for a little while and focus on my health because, you know, surprisingly, I’d like to live long enough to watch my son grow up. And, you know, that was something that, you know, I wanted to be able to do.
Yeah, that that’s that’s incredible. And thank you for your long career you had previously. It’s funny because, you know, you had said I was only 30 years old. That’s a long time.
Yeah. But it was only five years as a CTO, and there’s a bit of frustration at myself, honestly, that I feel that I wasn’t able to do more. You know, when I was debating on retiring, my I had a pros and cons list. And one of my cons was, is there’s so much left to do, and I wasn’t going to retire for a while. And then, finally, one of my really close friends said, there’s always going to be more stuff to do. There’s never been it’s never going to be done. So you can’t use that on your pros and cons list. And she was right, Right. Yeah. I just couldn’t because it was neither a pro nor con. It just was. And so I couldn’t use them.
It sounded like you had some really good people speaking into your life during your career. Do you have any specific advice or something? Someone has said to you during your career that’s really helped you in being like maybe more focused?
I think there’s a couple of things of things that people have shared. One is, and you know, this is just general, you know, research, and that most times for me, you know, I always didn’t apply. We were talking about applying or not applying when I didn’t apply was because I didn’t think I had the skill set to do it. And, you know, there’s research out there that most women don’t think they can take the job until they have all the skills, whereas men figure they’re going to learn it on the job. And so what I had to start learning was stop thinking that just because I don’t have the skill set means I can’t do something.
So that was a huge piece for me. You know, there, the connections you make are so very, very valuable. And the idea that if you stay in your district and you do the work that you will be successful and everything, and you might. But it is so much easier when you connect with other people, and you have conversations, and you problem-solve together. Because the truth of the matter is no bigger, no matter what the size, whether you’re big or small, we’re all going through the same issues. It’s just scope. And so connecting with others. I wouldn’t have survived COVID without a group of CTOs and CIOs across the country that every Friday, we would have a conversation, and we were like, How are you solving this problem?
How are you solving that problem? And it made life so much easier and make COVID so much easier to be able to share resources and do things. So your connections and your network are, to me, everything about leadership. If you don’t have a network, you need one. You know? And part of the work I’ve done in a couple instances now is just connecting people. I was talking to a brand new principal, and so I was like, Oh, I have a great principal for you to talk to. And so connecting that to people just so that they have somebody to talk to is hugely important.
Yeah, I have a I have a saying for, for my employees is if people want you to be successful, you’ll be successful, and people want you to be successful when you help other people, you know, what are you going to use that power for? And like, if I look back over my career, and I’m still in the infancy side of it, it has been because older men and women have taken a chance like, you know what, I like this kid that might not know 100% what he’s doing, but I believe if he’s in a position to help people, he’s going to do it.
And then also, you know, the givers game, like if you are giving to others and you’re taking, and you’re sacrificing for others, that will come back tenfold.
The mental mentorship is truly one of the best things. And honestly, I would say is probably one of the reasons I’ve been successful. I had two women who were more experienced, I’m going to say, in the field, and we’re CTOs and very successful ones in their own right who one day came to me and said, Hey, you’re going to be one of the new coach and board members.
And I kind of laughed at them, and they were like, No, for real. We’ve already kind of submitted your information, and they literally have pushed me through my career and, you know, check in with me every now and then. And then I also had a boss who was male who made sure, and I would say this about the two women, too, when when you’re not in a room, you need people who know your name and can use your name in rooms that you’re not in. And he was very good about doing that for me. And still to this day is is a great mentor in doing that. And so I hope in many ways that I’ve been doing that for others, both men and women in my career is making sure that I’m always recruiting, I’m always looking. I love to poach people.
It’s one of my favorite things to do. But by getting good talent is you have to do that through networking, and that’s the only way that works.
That’s excellent. So now you’re out. How have you enjoyed your time on the other side, at least a little bit further for the little bit of time you said?
Sure. So most of it’s been spent with family. I have a son who’s going to college his first year this year, and we’re taking him to school next week, and I’m excited and nervous all at the same time. But then just trying to figure out what my next career is, you know, I am, and my husband was the same way my identity was tied to who I was and work. And so trying to figure out now if I’m not the CTO or if I’m not CTO or a tech director, who am I? And so I’m spending the next couple of years hopefully trying to figure that out. Definitely staying in education and wanting to help and still move the mission forward with education, but then just trying to figure out what’s next for me.
And so started a consulting company, and so we’re going to see how that goes for LA. Well.
I know you will be successful making sure people will make sure that so moving you know, that’s that that’s your origin story, and I love that just started from being a kindergarten teacher. Such an important position, and then coming to this point, just helping at a massive district harness technology unit for education. So important. And I asked you what would be a good topic to talk about because we’ll break this up kind of into two pieces right, the origin side and then the actual podcast side.
And you had brought up, and I love that you brought this up is the diversity in education technology and then at tech leadership and then honestly, education leadership. And you know, really, technology in general is has had an issue with diversity. Can you talk a little bit about that? And then maybe where it’s starting and maybe where there are some areas that could be improved?
Sure. Interestingly enough, diversity, equity, and inclusion are three areas that I spend a lot of time trying to learn more about. And I think it’s not just in education. I don’t think it’s just an edtech. I think these are conversations that are being held, you know, across the world. And I think people recognize that we are the most powerful and the best people that we can be when we have a diverse group of perspectives and understandings around us.
And so trying to figure out how to best meet that, while also making sure there is equity for all and that that when we say all means all that we’re meeting those needs and then making people feel again as we talked about with inclusion being seen, heard and understood. So in EdTech specifically, it’s been interesting because I think quite often when we in EdTech talk, we’re actually talking about equality, not equity is driving me crazy.
I’d be in a room full of tech directors, and I’m like, Oh, we’re focused on equity. We have 1 to 1, everybody has a device. And I’m like, That’s not equity, right? That’s equality. Everybody has the same. And so when we think about that, and then we think about understanding who people are like equity and inclusion can’t happen if you don’t see people for who they are. Yeah. And so this in edtech, I think it’s specifically important because there are lots of people who are not being seen or who are not being included specifically around women and people of color. We are a very white male industry, not just in technology, but also in education, especially education leadership. We have lots of women in education, but very few women in leadership.
So I think these all mirror each other in that process. And so, really trying to focus on how do we bring more to the table people perspectives and become better than what we are.
So earlier, we were talking about like the big little things, and let’s say that you were given the chair of, um, you know, education, and you could make a couple of small changes to help with this problem. Um, where, what age group which is starts, and what would be some messages that you would be sending out or education that you’d be implementing to help with that process?
That’s an interesting question because I don’t know that I’d start with an age group because everybody’s important, but I think I’d start with teachers because people who are seen, heard, and understood can see here and understand. So if we’re not doing that for the adults and they can’t do it for others. So I think from that perspective is understanding staff, understanding the needs of staff is still a huge piece that has to be done. As far as education’s concerned. I don’t like starting with a group because every student deserves to be seen, heard, and understood. So just saying kindergarten does or high school does means there’s whole groups of people who are not not being seen, heard or understood. And that that makes me sad. But I do know that, you know, this the story is, you know, of of taking a bite of an elephant at a time.
How do you eat an elephant? You take one bite at a time. You know, I think we have to start learning to be a little bit more creative. But I do think starting with staff is a huge piece of that, not as a checklist. Right? Right. Diversity equity inclusion is not a checklist. It’s it’s a mindset. And it’s understanding that each person has value. And then how do we bring that value forward, whether that’s through different needs that people have, whether that’s bringing them to the table, whether that’s making them feel like they belong, all of those things are super important in that role. But my fear has always been and will continue to be that diversity equity inclusion becomes another one of the education or workplace things that we just hope we did this for. Yeah, it’s a change of heart because that’s not really what it is.
Yeah, I agree with that. Um, so in career, this is one of the questions I had. Can you share a story where because you had a good diverse group that helped you to make a more educated decision and tech.
Yeah, Yeah. I’ll absolutely say, and I had to keep kind of pan this, but COVID, right? Having a diverse group of folks that we talk to, and we even included people outside of our division, talking with parents having folks from different backgrounds. I think all of that, anytime you can listen and hear what people are saying they need hugely helpful. And I, again, I don’t think we could accomplish what we did without it. And it what it also taught my team as well. And let me explain that most technicians, most technical technology people live in a cubicle or an office space, and they stay there are in the data center and they stay there. When COVID hit, everybody had to participate.
And so everybody was out working with families. And honestly, a lot of staff didn’t realize when they make decisions how the decisions affect families. And more than one time I had staff come to me and say, I talked to this parent. This is what’s happening. Can we change this? Because this makes more sense because the families need this. Absolutely. Let’s do that. Yeah. And I think having those diverse perspectives and exposing people too, to that really does make us stronger in that work. And COVID did that for us.
Yeah. Allows you to get past the surface and get down deeper to where the pain points are. You might not be able to see if you didn’t have that perspective, correct, all of that. That’s great. Um, why, why do you think that there’s such a big disparity in edtech when it comes to representation, and then are there any particular barriers or certain groups that it’s hardest for history?
History is the barrier quite often systems were built with one population in mind, and now that we understand the value proposition for other populations, there is a mentality in the world that if, if, if we give up our power, they lose power rather than it increases my power. And so when we talk about this, and you and I were talking about the Barbie movie earlier, and I haven’t seen it yet, but it has been very polarizing for people who have seen it.
But I do think a lot of the barriers we see are truly systemic things like, for instance, maternity women who want to have children, who have to take time off and stay home with kids. Well, just now, recently, more maternity care is being given right now. More men are staying home. That’s a systemic thing. So when it comes to leadership, if you’re taking care of your kids, you’re not seen as a leader because you’re not putting in the hours at work.
Yeah.
And so that’s been a barrier. Some of the some of the smallest things, kind of the death by a thousand cuts are the microaggressions that are out there right now. I cannot tell you how many of those I have experienced over my career. Simple things like being, even though I’m quite competent, being told how to do my job by somebody who thinks a male who thinks I must not know that because I’m just a female.
Yeah. Or being in a room with some of my male staff and someone coming in, a vendor coming into the office and introducing himself to the male because clearly the male is the CTO in the room or things like taking credit for ideas that I have just said. Lots of things like that can happen or, you know, inappropriate jokes or, you know, being boxed out of a conversation by just a shoulder with a group of men or just having male conversations that, you know, some women aren’t going to participate.
I’m not going to talk about fishing. I’m probably not going to talk about golf, either. That either. Yeah, but but when we talk about those things being more inclusive and how we do that, are are hugely important when we’re looking at how we make feel people feel like they belong. And if you don’t feel like you don’t belong, then people don’t stay or people don’t come, and you have to be able to see people like I want to see like as one of the very few women in the top districts in the country leading a school district. There weren’t many like me. So how do we, you know, how do we make sure that there are more so that people are included, and that and I’m using myself an example as women, but even less so people of color, and especially women of color in these roles.
What are some things I know you’re really involved with Coson and some other boards. What are some things from your experience that you’ve seen or strategies or initiatives that you’re seeing some movement in?
I think what we’re starting to see is hiring, like in how we handle h.r. Processes. It’s probably one of the easiest for one, just telling people that hiring diversity is important because when left to our own devices as human beings, we gravitate to those people who are like us.
Yeah.
And understanding that one of the values we have as a company or as a district or as a school is to have diversity and pointing it out. For instance, was at a concert just recently with my son, and we were visiting my parents, and I had him look around All the people was an outdoor concert. And I said, Tell me what you don’t see. And he looked around. He looked around and he said, Mom, there’s no people of color here. I said, You’re right. And sometimes just being intentional and in showing people, okay, what what don’t we see? What are we not seeing? What perspectives aren’t at the table when you’re hiring? You know, looking at that is important. Who don’t we have on our team?
And then, you know, some of the work around job descriptions and looking at job descriptions, the way we write job descriptions in this country, at least in K-12, is antiquated. Right? We expect high education, we expect high experience. And you can’t get the experience without, you know, having the high a high education. And quite honestly, the high education costs a lot of money. And a lot of our our our a lot of folks don’t have the educational background to come from, but they have the experience, or they have the ability to what you and I were talking about, which is they have the willingness to learn and they have a work ethic. I’ll take that any day over somebody with a degree or five degrees. Yeah.
So, a question I had, and it’s just how my mind kind of works for being proactive. And I don’t know because I don’t work for a school. Are schools like do they have programs like, Oh, like, let’s open up, we’re going to do tech training for teachers who might be interested in being a tech director one day and having people who are slotted. Or is it just like our tech director just left? We need to hire somebody like today.
That’s exactly that. That, unfortunately is exactly the way the way most districts are. You know, I joked earlier about constantly wanting to poach and recruit, but everywhere I go, I’m looking for talent, not only because I may want to hire them one day, but because they make some of the best people. And so looking for a variety of people and understanding and mentoring folks who, you know, succession planning is important.
Yeah. And that’s surprising to me. And, you know, the world’s changing quickly, and it might be something that’s put into place in future years. But I don’t know why schools don’t have like, oh, this is an assistant tech director, and maybe it’s a teacher that teaches part-time. And then it’s also like learning part-time because if I’m thinking like when I think about like a tech director, how important it’s like if I’m a superintendent, what if they leave? They have all the keys to the castle, like our network could go down like education could.
Oh, redundancy of people is the worst thing we have going for us in many cases, especially in the EdTech field. But I do think that there are people who are doing that. I think there’s always a fear that there could be somebody better out there, and certainly, you want to hire the best talent. So whoever that best talent is is who you want to hire.
But I do think it’s important to grow people if as a leader, you’re not growing people and growing a variety of people, right, then you’re not doing your job. People always would say, Well, what if they leave? I celebrate that because if I’ve trained you enough and if I’ve gotten you to grow enough that you get to go out and leave and do something bigger and better for yourself. Bravo.
Yeah. Typically, if you’re leaving and you’re leaving in the right way, you’re leaving it well in place and where it can run itself correctly.
Yeah, correct.
I love that. So future outlook, obviously, you’re stepping into this new this new era of your career. Where do you see yourself playing into this issue that you’re seeing kind of long term with your next step in career?
So diversity and first equity and inclusion, as I said, is a passion. And I think there are so many things to be considered in that area and not just in our perspectives but in how we include kids, how we train teachers, how we grow leadership, how we provide materials to students. We want our kids to see materials that reflect them.
So in my new role, I still believe, and I still want to do that work. So it’s my hope going forward that part of what you know, the part of what I’ll do is work with our education institutions, but also our EdTech companies who may or may not be putting out products that reflect the diversity of students, that make kids feel included or that provide equitable solutions. So that’s really, you know, my thought process right now is trying to figure out ways that I can still plug in to make a bigger impact across both sets of folks.
Yeah, I love that. So on this series, I’m going to ask these three questions because this is what I love to talk about on a personal level. Favorite movie. Favorite book. Favorite show and why show?
Oh, favorite movies? Hard because I have lots of favorite movies.
Same.
So, my family would probably say my favorite movie is probably The Replacements.
Okay.
Do you know the movie? No. All right. So Keanu Reeves movie, Gene Hackman, it’s about NFL going on strike. And so the players who come in as the Replacements anyway, funny movie, Cheesy, all the things great underdog story, if it comes on the TV, I can’t not watch it. So I absolutely adore that movie. But I’m also, you know, huge Steel Magnolias fan as well.
That’s another one that I have to keep on if it comes on. But I probably have a list of 100 favorites. I’m also a big Marvel and Marvel fan. The irony of that. Yeah, so but you know.
What’s your favorite Marvel movie?
Oh, Black Panther and Easy, Easy Black Panther, and then Endgame. I don’t know why because I cry through the whole movie, but Endgame is a good one, too. And I like Ms. Marvel, too.
Yeah. Black Panther is up there for me. Thor Ragnarok is my favorite.
That’s a good one too.
I just saw that laugh the whole time.
Yeah, it is a good one.
Yeah. Favorite book.
Favorite book. The great question I am going to pull from my my life of children’s literature. And it was always Love You Forever by Thomas Munch or by Robert Munch. Excuse me. And I like anything by Robert Munch in general, just because And of course, that one’s near and dear to me right now, so I can say, you know, it’s about a son growing up and the mom who loves him. So I’m going to stick with that one right now. So as far as a leadership book, I will say I do love my the iceberg is melting. Um, and that’s a John Carter book about change management.
I haven’t read that one.
Yeah, it’s an easy 20-minute read. It’s like a little favorite show.
Yes.
So I so let me go with my if I’m doing nothing and I want something on TV, I am a law and order NCIS freak. Like I watch them all, like Special Victims is my favorite. And if I ever life is ever made into a TV series, Mariska Hargitay is going to be is going to play me. So I’m going to go with that. But as far as more shows watching right now, I love Ted Lasso. So, of course, you know, you can’t not love Ted Lasso just finished Jack Ryan, which is great and I’m watching only murders in the building right now which is I haven’t.
See, I’ve heard good things.
So yeah, it’s pretty good too. So as far as new new series, so and I really, really love Queer Eye, which is on Netflix as well. That’s great. It’s a new group of guys, and I just love a makeover story.
That’s great.
So.
Well, Marlo, I am so thankful you come out here to the Valparaiso studio to shoot this. And I’m really excited what you do with your career. And I want to say thank you for your 30 years. You put in education, and I’m excited to see what you do with the next.
Yeah, me too. And I appreciate the getting to come out here. It’s it’s a great group, and you’ve got a great group of folks that work here. And so I’m greatly appreciative that conversation.
Awesome. Thank you.
Thank you.
In Episode 33, Hope Davis, MA, CHC takes us on a journey from personal challenges to leading educational innovation at Teach Tech U. Discover how her experiences fueled a passion for transformative technology in education, shaping the future with Project LEAR. An inspiring conversation for anyone intrigued by the power of tech to change lives. […]
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With guest speaker Marsha Maxwell, PhD, CETL, join us for a reflective journey on the advancements of AI through the years, focusing on how we can further develop these technologies to bridge educational divides.
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