My guest today, can you introduce yourself?
Hi, my name’s Mike Sumpter.
Can you let the people know your background and the experience you have in this field?
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve been in education for almost 18 years as a technology director or as a consultant and currently I’m Chief Information Officer for the Diocese of Gary. I work with 17 different schools within the diocese and a college actually was in the diocese so it’s really a mix of many different areas and levels of technology. Through the years I’ve built networks and worked with people to build them. I’ve also consulted with building networks and infrastructure and I’ve also been a part of cloud implementation over the years as well so… I don’t know, sometimes I look back at my past over the years at my background and I think, “Wow, I’ve got a lot of variety.” So, I think my experience and my background is really helpful for any school or organization.
Yeah, and a little background on me and Mike’s relationship is that Mike actually was overseeing a tech director position at a school and that was my first school account that I ever got, so we’ve gotten to know each other over the last 9 years. I don’t know if you remember that.
I remember that. That was an awesome time man.
iPad Mini 1st Gen time.
Yeah it was.
A long time ago. And one thing I always noticed about Mike specifically is that he took the job very seriously on making sure the school was set up and having the hard conversations with the administration like saying…this is a problem that you’re going to have and you need to fix and these are the issues you’re going to have if you don’t fix them. And there’s so many people in this industry that just want to say yes and kind of curtail and be a yes person to the school and I always appreciated your candor and, you know, your commitment to education.
Well, thanks. I think that’s one of the challenges and, you know, this, Zack, you know, it’s hard to get in front of people and when you get in front of them those hard conversations they just want to know what they need to know so they can make the right choice. And I think, you know, working with you and we developed that program with the Department of Indiana… remember the Department of Education was involved in that process? Also it was new to them and that was really powerful. But even having those conversations were things that were really needed. So, yeah, it’s never easy, but it’s also very important.
Yeah, I appreciate that. And so for the laymans including myself– I’m not a network expert. Can you first define what a standard network in schools might look like? What systems they might use and what hardware they might use and then what function it has?
Sure, sure. And at a higher level you’re going to have a server of course that hosts data and maybe some applications and then you’ll have switches and drops and maybe even some access points at a high level. But getting kind of down into the weeds in most of the districts you’ll have fiber running in between your buildings, you know, that’s pretty common. Schools use e-rate to purchase that kind of equipment and then inside the building you would have switches and routers that are programmed specifically for a certain task whether it’s, you know, a phone system using quality of service, you know, those switches and ports will be configured is such a way that those protocols can be utilized. From a server side districts usually have a server room or some sort of location where all of their data, all of their services and all of their servers would be located and that room is usually pretty cold for cooling to keep it cool. And so, that’s something that is very large they would have like a SAN–HP SAN/ Dell SAN, something like that. Nimble SAN. Some type of huge storage unit and then they would have hosts that would run servers and things like that and they would utilize something like VMware or you know Hyper-V, Microsoft Azure, something to that effect for their server. So kind of like from a higher level zooming in that’s kind of in a broad scope that’s what it looks like. Sometimes it varies. No one school looks the same. There are always some differences. Customizations. But for the most part a basic standard setup is that.
Yeah, that’s really helpful. How much storage would you say… Let’s just say a normal school is 3,500 students, right? How many terabytes of storage would you say they would have at a school that size?
Yeah, and again that’s going to depend on the size. Or the size of their applications and their data. So, I mean most common schools are… data storage is so cheap right now I wouldn’t be surprised if some schools are running around that 6-8 TB, probably somewhere in that area I would guess. One district that we were working with prior to my position at the diocese, they were 46,000 students in Washington and they were using… they had maybe 30/40 TB of space but that’s a lot of kids, you know what i mean? But they had replicated in many areas for backup purposes and stuff, but it really depends on what you are using. Most schools, though, like 1,200/1,000-1,500 students, you don’t need a whole lot, so just my guess.
Yeah good to know.
Absolutely.
So getting into your expertise and what you’ve been concentrating on the last couple of years is– Can you define, you know, what a cloud based network looks like and the main differences between the two?
So a cloud network is going to be more…cloud networks are more geared toward the server side of things. So the infrastructure that you would have– your routers, your switches, your fiber, the cables in the room, of course. You would need those things. The access points. But your servers are what is the most costly. So you sit down and you have to think about: what does that look like? And so the biggest difference between them is security. Number one it’s going to be security. When’s the last time you heard Amazon got hacked? I mean, you don’t. And Microsoft Azure, for example. I mean, when’s the last time you heard they were compromised? I mean…you just don’t and so when it comes down to the real difference in today’s world it’s going to be security. I mean, we both know we heard in the news that solar winds just got penetrated by the government got hacked into by solar winds just was that this past week weekend last week? And that was terrible. Don’t get me wrong. That was awful. But it really comes down to your security and how it’s set up. So the real difference between the cloud and an on prem type of setup is going to be security. A lot of people, a lot of directors will say, “Yeah, if I’ve got everything on prem…on the premise…I don’t have to worry about it because it’s only me. I’m the only one who has control.” Which is true. Which is true. But even your accounts can get compromised. You know what I mean? As a tech director. So we have to be really cognizant of how we protect those passwords and stuff.
Yeah. One thing that I’ve seen in school environments when I go in and typically in the server rooms or in the technology offices and stuff and one thing I’ve seen and what they kind of talk about is, “Oh I didn’t have the budget, so this is a hodgepodged server.” And what it looks like is and what they say is, “If I ever leave, no one is going to know what to do with this server.” And I think that’s really common in smaller schools is you have these server rooms and this network that has been built by one, you know, tech director or one tech over the last 10-15 years because they didn’t really have the infrastructure to really go out and build it and that’s one thing I think about a benefit of the cloud is it’s no longer one person’s game anymore. You have just a lot of different…a lot of people can help you in managing that.
Right, correct. And that’s one of the things that…and this goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning and communication with your upper management…as directors we get so laser focused on what we see in front of us that sometimes we fail to have those conversations with leaders about future things. We have to always be transparent with them and always keeping them abreast of what’s happening. And so that pre planning, as I call it, you know, you have to always be feeding your leadership team that…you know, what we need to be aware of these things that are coming down the pike and sometimes as tech directors we get so… our plates are so full that we just…that part just kind of fades away. But, anyways, but so they…I totally agree. It’s one of those things that we really have to be more cognizant as directors and really try to plan more and get in there. But the hodge podge sometimes comes because of our lack of funding, which is true. It can be a lack of funding. But sometimes in the districts I’ve been to I’ve tried to be as strategic as I can with the funds that I have. And so one of the things that I’ve been really successful with in the past was if we knew that this budget was only $1,000 we tried to take that $1,000 and wrap it around the higher cost later, you know what I mean? So that’s one thing that’s been really beneficial. So if the budget’s tight now that’s okay. I’ll make it work. But later I know that I’ll get a little more money so I can spend a little bit more. So it comes down to strategy, really. But, in the Cloud, though, you can almost dive in right away. That same $1,000 you can just say, “Alright I’ll spin up a server, I’ll play with it for a year.” And you can literally put data in it and go at it and it’s done.
Yeah, that was kind of my next question is, you know, obviously Cloud it seems like it’s gone zero to 1,000 mile an hour in the last 5 years specifically in schools. And I know in the beginning it was like maybe cost effect wise it wasn’t quite there. But what I kinda want to hear is: What does the pricing difference look like? I have a normal network server. I want to switch to the Cloud. What does the pricing look like for a school, let’s say 10 TB?
For sure. So, when you…the first thing you look at is how much data is being transferred from a server to the rest of the work stations. That’s the first thing you’ve got to look at. So, it’s really wise to have, like, a cloud assessment, so to speak. When you come in, when you’re coming into that concept, if you have a Cloud assessment they install this agent to all your systems and then what happens is it calculates how much data is going from your server out to your work stations. Or how much is coming in and going out from the server and so it makes it really nice because now you can see how much it’s going to cost and so within that you want to look at how much data you have first. Because the cost could be more if you have an on premise type of data base or something like that, sometimes in some situations. But in more today I would say that it’s becoming cheap. Amazon is– the last that I checked– Amazon is, what, almost .00025 for some data, you know what I mean? It’s so cheap. I mean I’m sarcassing, but, I mean, it’s so inexpensive now. And, it is, it’s a mind shift. So, as technology directors we’re used to thinking, “I’m going to buy this server from company a for $70,000 for this 10 TB and then I’ve got to worry about everything else: if a drive goes bad I’ve got to have somebody in here to fix it, contracts to maintain it…” So, that amount could add up pretty quick where with the cloud what’s pretty nice is that same amount of money could be cut in half because now you don’t need people. You might have Amazon do it for you, which is included in the price potentially. And it might be even half, you know, considering the setup and all that stuff and what it gives you, so you just have to do those calculations and that’s what that Cloud assessment does for you that’s really positive.
Yeah and one question I had…I think you might have answered it earlier, but being more specific: when a school moves to the Cloud, like Cloud based server, do they need their physical servers any more?
They do. It would be highly recommended to have it. And the reason for that is redundancy. So, if there’s ever a time that your internet connection is cut or severed, you can still function. So it’s a hybrid type of model and Amazon is…they do a fantastic job of encouraging this for organizations and it’s a fantastic setup and it doesn’t require very much and a lot of people will say, “Well, I’m spending a lot of money just to have Cloud stuff when I already got the hardware. Why have it?” And again it goes back to redundancy. So, if you’ve got a hardware failure internal the Cloud kicks in, you know what I mean, and then you can keep going. So it makes it really nice in that regard.
Yeah that’s good to know because I could see…I just know there’s a lot of…I think a lot of people look at their network and see job security, you know, “I’m the only one who understands this. It’s my job security.” Specifically managed service companies. And I think it’s good to kind of talk about the specifics of what changes and what doesn’t because it’s like, “Oh no you are still going to want your network.” And also the Cloud and redundancy was a good point too. So, next question is: Let’s say I’m a school and I don’t have the budget to go all in. Can you do a slow transition building by building just for teachers? What would that look like if you wanted to slowly transition?
That’s a great question. One of the things that Amazon has changed, which is absolutely fantastic, it’s incredible…they came out with a new model here in December called an Outpost and what the Outpost does is it provides organizations an opportunity just to save little pieces of data or create a server in a remote area that just literally doesn’t do anything almost before you transition into the full blown Cloud. And I’m sure that Microsoft has something similar, but I only speak with Amazon because it just hit the news recently. But the outpost allows you to get started earlier in your journey of trying to learn what is it, what to do… But as a director you want to look at your organization and you want to say, “Okay, what do I have that’s on a server that I could literally put out into the Cloud and people could access?” I mean, that’s the question we would want to ask ourselves as directors in a simple way. So it could be a database, it could be anything in that realm. And if you can move just one little server and play with it, that’s a step in the right direction. And then you build it out, you scale it up. So then if it’s one small database of ten people, then maybe it’s an application server of 500 that you then move next summer. So you become strategic, but the key through all of this is you don’t do it by yourself. The one thing that I’ve seen that’s been really nice over the past 3-4 years is if you have that trusted consultant with you–not an MSP–like if you had a consultant that literally would walk with you through that process as a guide, that makes a huge difference. You know what I’m trying to say? I mean even in our line of work it would have been great to have a consultant that would have helped you or helped us way back in the beginning and we would have eliminated some of those mistakes moving forward. But, anyways, so yeah…
Yeah, you know, I think that’s interesting and this is another question that I have and I love that you have this perspective from working with large school districts 15,000, you know, 45,000 all the way down to you know obviously a Catholic school diocese which is still a bigger diocese, but it’s more like smaller actual locations and schools…. Let’s say I’m a small school and naturally when I think of a small school it’s going to cost me more money to transition than if I were a large school and I actually don’t think that’s the case if I remember right. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, I’m a smaller school/bigger school– is it more cost effective for a smaller school or a larger school to switch over to the Cloud?
I really think there’s going to be…to compare the smaller to the larger… probably there’s going to be a savings either way and it just really depends, so if you let me back up. Each school has a pot of money. So if I’m a smaller school I may only get $200,000/year technology budget. If I’m at a larger school I might have $2 million in technology. I’m just throwing out numbers. So, but, the needs are going to be the same, but yet different, so anyways, I think there’s a ratio there and I think that the effect of the Cloud in both situations would be pretty dramatic. So if you’re a community/a small school corporation, you know,.1,000 students and you get rid of these local resources and get them into the Cloud, you are going to pay for the data but you are only paying for what you use. So, if you think about it, Zack, this is why it’s a great question. Schools are in session what? 10 months out of the year? You know what I mean? That’s it. Well, if you’re only paying for what you use you’re only going to be paying for 10 months worth of stuff. Whereas if you’re buying things outright you’ve already invested everything into it and it’s all there and you’ve got to maintain it 24/7 365. Whereas in the Cloud it just sits and if you don’t use it you don’t pay for it. And that’s a real benefit to both smaller districts and the larger ones. So, I think the smaller ones, those are the ones that are tighter in the budget although they are both probably tight, but I think there’s a little more benefit to a smaller school corporation because of their smaller budget constraints. A tech director’s wearing 75 different hats in a smaller district. You know what I mean?
That’s exactly what I was thinking, just a way to kind of bring it all under one roof and make it easier to manage. What I was going to ask you and it sounds like Amazon has been making some huge moves, specifically into supported education and my question is right now: Which Cloud based provider do you feel like is the best for education? And then the next question is: Which companies do you feel like are on the rise and will fill that and will be like these are the 3 or 4 main competitors that you’re going to see? Because this is just me and my business mind thinking, but what I kind of feel like I anticipate is I know Google is throwing a lot of money into this realm and obviously chromebooks I need to look again, but i think it’s something like 70% of the market is some sort of Google device in schools. I kind of anticipate Cloud based networks in schools just being included in their one to one devices that they are buying and I kind of want to hear what you think about that. Will Apple schools use an Apple…I don’t even know if Apple’s really big into the Cloud with schools. Will Microsoft schools use Azure? Or will everybody just use someone like Amazon because it doesn’t really matter?
Yeah, it depends on what you’re using it for, you know. Amazon has some tools and technologies that are just mind blowing in the Cloud. So, for example, just to showcase something that’s a little bit different, you can run auto CAD on an iphone if you want to or auto CAD on a chromebook using Amazon services and I mean think about that for a second most of our schools when you have to do drafting you have to go to a classroom because you’ve gotta buy a $3,000 computer to run this stuff and the beauty of Amazon with their technologies you can actually use auto CAD on a chromebook an iPad a phone I mean don’t get me wrong the screens would be so tiny it would be insane but I’m just saying it’s really powerful to see Amazon’s move into the Cloud technologies. Google used to be…they really tried to make an impact in the Cloud technologies but they have actually gone backwards on trying to compete with Amazon and with Azure in the server space and I think there was an initiative I believe it was back early February/March…I’m not sure I’d have to look it up, but I believe there was a statement that they said if they didn’t see an increase in people switching over to their services they were going to maybe take a step back.
Do you think that’s because Google is seeing so much success in GAFE (Google Apps for Education) that they’re just leaning into the actual device Cloud storage.
Yeah, I think that Google has dominated the market and you’re exactly right they’ve dominated the market in Google Suite and chrome OS they are the new Apple of our day and I think that they’ve found their niche in that area and they’re just trying to solidify it. I agree with you that’s what they’re doing, but in the server realm I mean it’s hard to compete with an Amazon, you know what I mean? It is very difficult for them and you’re Google. The one thing that Google has though that I think is very unique to what I think the big 3 (Google, AWS and Microsoft) Google has the fastest infrastructure. Their networks are super fast compared to everybody else. Now when you look at Google’s services from a server side, a Cloud side– AWS dominates that market. I mean the little things that Amazon has and has developed over the years is just absolutely incredible. Being able to run applications from a web browser. I mean you can run auto CAD from a web browser. I mean that just is mind blowing. And it’s just so powerful for K-12 schools. Where Microsoft is more that Microsoft type of feel which some people want cause you know I’ve got active directories so it makes sense for me to move it into Azure, but what’s really interesting between all of them though is there’s a lot of diversification and you don’t ever want to throw all your eggs in one basket because if something were to happen to your Amazon situation or your setup you would never want to be left with having to make that phone call: We’re down. In the Cloud realm you always want to try to have yourself another type of backup with another Cloud solution sometimes.
Yeah and that’s like a really good point is these companies ultimately are in it…they want to stay in their lane like Google has done really well. I’ve talked to so many schools– there’s companies that all they do is stuff like G Suite for schools specifically and they can’t even compete. Google’s so easy to use. In my business we’ve been using Google for the last ten years and when you can do active documents with somebody else, working with somebody else especially remotely I mean it’s so powerful. And I’m very biased and I don’t like Microsoft’s 365, it’s just not as user friendly and sure you might not have all of those enterprise tools like Excel. There’s a lot of things you can’t do in Google that you can do in Word and Powerpoint and other things, but 99.9% of the time you can use Google for a lot of the function. And I really see Google taking over a lot of the Microsoft market share in education. I think Apple is always going to own the K-5 for the most part. I just don’t know if Google is going to be able to get there. Especially because most kids have either an Apple device or an iPad at home, so when they come into school it’s one less thing they’ve got to learn. So I’m curious to see if Google just stays in their lane. I mean they’ll always have some sort of networking available, but it probably won’t be as cheap or as maybe easy to use as AWS for education.
You bring up a really great point with Apple for an example. Remember back in the day they dominated the market with the device? They just dominated the market with the device. But the one thing that they never developed was the software side. The Cloud side, you know, it was very clunky to administer the devices and I shouldn’t say…I don’t mean it in a negative way, but compared to what Google’s console is, it was very clunky to be able manage that. But, in Apple’s defense they’ve made some just fantastic changes just with the management things since then. But back in the day it was difficult. It was new to everybody and they were trying to develop it also. But you’re right. Google has made some really amazing strides, but the one thing with Office 365– with the diocese we use Office 365 and Google for education for our schools because that’s free and you can’t pass up free. I mean, that’s real powerful. But the one thing that I really have noticed with my transition in this particular position that I’m in now–the Office 365 there’s a lot more detail in the feature richness that they offer on the administration side that I feel like you don’t get as much of that in the Google area but in Google’s defense it’s like once you’ve got it set up you can do whatever you want. It’s almost like they keep it a little more generic so that way it’s just turn this on and then you’ve got these 45 things you can do where with Microsoft it would be if you want to do this one thing here are 45 different options. Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think for higher level that’s one thing Microsoft owns and will always own is they are going to own the enterprise, the business stuff, the professional realm. When it gets into like these very minute details are very important those industries Microsoft is going to own because you’ve got consultants and everything that works with that…Google’s like alright we’ve got one of the teachers doesn’t have a lot of experience does not need a lot of hand holding to learn how to use this and make it work.
And that’s right. I mean they make it work. A teacher can make it work. And that’s what’s needed in education. You really…time is money for those schools. You know, we go back to the example the difference between a small district going to the Cloud and a large district, you know, schools have got to have a consultant who helps them set it up so it’s strategic and unified all the way through and then if you turn it over to a teacher at a high school they’re going to set it up one way for their class and then if you give it to a seventh grade teacher they will set it up a different way so you’ve got to be unified on the front, you know. You’ve got to have those strategists, I guess. You know, that coordination. Otherwise you get lost in all of it because then you’ve got organizations that are just all over the place and it’s not a unified setup so…
Yeah what’s the saying? ‘I bought a Ferrari and they gave me a box of parts.’
Yeah, there you go.
For a lot of people, that’s what it feels like. It’s like. “Oh, this has all these great tools. I don’t even know where to start.”
Well and that’s where you had asked earlier what organization is there that can help you through that process and that’s the trick isn’t it, Zack? We have to find people that we trust at the end of the day in business and you’ve got to know that they are looking out for you and it’s hard finding MSPs that are very transparent, you know what I mean, and work hard that you see that you know here’s what we’re doing for you and here’s my fees and this is how we’re earning your business. You know, that’s difficult to find. That’s a challenge. And so we just have to find those vendors that are willing to…that you can tell are working hard for you. In a Cloud space, for an example, there’s one organization out of Florida they’re called Kinect IT. They are fantastic in Cloud services. I know that they were involved with one of your clients, Penn Harris Madison, they did a lot for them in getting auto CAD onto those Chromebooks and iPads. It was really powerful. And I know that they’ve done a fantastic job in the government space working with the federal government with implementing AWS and some of their initiatives. So, you know, that kind of experience you don’t get anywhere. You know what I mean? You just can’t find that hardly. And what I appreciate about their setup and the little bit that I’ve worked with them–they will provide you a point person, right? And it’s not just a salesperson but it’s an actual consultant that you get and then they are with you throughout that whole journey and that’s powerful. For someone who’s new, that’s awesome. You know what I mean? That’s really really powerful. So in the Cloud space…but I think a lot of schools, you know, they just struggle with their budgets and it’s going back to what you said: We sometimes are so laser-focused on what’s right in front of us that we forget some of the other little areas that we need to broaden it out. But it’s because of all the hats we’re wearing and if there’s an MSP to help you, you can take off a couple of those hats. You know what I mean? Those bigger ones. But you’ve got to find the right one.
And, you know, kind of getting to the end of this podcast…kind of the last question I have and maybe one of the most important is: I’m a school. I want to start this process, either the investigation portion or start actually moving stuff over. Any time I Google something like ‘what’s the best…?’ it’s just a company that’s just paid for ad revenue or they’ve written an article to kind of sneakily sell their services, so I’m a school. I want to start the transition. Where do I start?
Right. Yeah, so one of the key things you bring up a great point. Anyone can post anything at any time today, right? We know that. And we see that it’s very easy on social media to post a lot of different things. One of the markers that I use is I do a deep research into the organization or consultant group before I move forward. So back in the day I would take a lot of time and try to interview different organizations to see what do they offer, what does their resume look like, how many schools have you been in? And anyone can post anything to social media but I want to know the facts. And then I would…it’s almost like a job interview, you know, you’re interviewing someone and you’ve got to follow up with those references, but sometimes you’ve got to go beyond those references, you know what I mean? Because anybody can put anything on a piece of paper. So one of the things that I always find really helpful is when I call the organizations that those companies have worked with I always ask them ‘Tell me one or two things that didn’t go well.’ And because nothing will ever be perfect. And you’ll start to see how the organization made their mistake. But you’re also going to see how they made up for it. And that’s really positive also. But finding a consultant is the trick. And LinkedIn I’ve found is very powerful for that actually. Because that’s very professional based and so I’ve really kind of liked that. There’s a lot of education people out there. I know that you know there’s several consultant companies. You know, Xyity was one of them that helps. They just point you in the right direction. They are there to walk with you through the process. And they give you the company and then guess what. It’s you and the company and they’re always there just trying to guide you. So organizations like them, which there’s many others, you know, those are the ones that you want to look for. I know that some of the organizations are going to have superintendents on staff. That’s important. Because, Zack, we’ve talked about it before, you know, you’ve got to have someone who can talk to that upper-level management. And a company like Xyity who has the superintendent on staff, they can talk that talk right from the technology side and from the superintendent side, and that creates a real positive thing for the school. And that’s a great place to start, right? Because now you have a leadership at the top speaking to the superintendent and now you as a technology director can do your thing with the technology piece, you know. It just makes it a lot easier for schools to get started.
Yeah and that’s super helpful. If they wanted to reach out to you with Xyity with questions or consulting, what’s a good email to reach you at?
Yeah, I mean if they wanted to reach out they could. It’s [email protected] x-y-i-t-y.com. And I could absolutely point them in the right direction. For sure. The last thing I want to share with you and with the listeners is, you know, don’t be afraid to just create a small account and play, you know. It’s ok to create a small little server and just put a few files up there and use it as a small sandbox if you will. And you get to play with it for a little bit and it makes it good for you, makes that transition easy. But at the end of the day having that Cloud assessment in place where an organization can come in and do that for you…Oh my gosh that saved me. If I would have known that back then, that would have saved me tens of thousands of dollars and it’s just that Cloud assessment for as little as you pay for those things I mean they tell you exactly what you’re going to pay per month, how much data is going to go up and back and then they will even tell you which provider’s the best one for you between Google Amazon and Microsoft. Those reports are very very powerful. And that’s something that I’ll be doing in the diocese myself. So that’s really great.
Well that’s awesome. Thanks Mike for being on the K12 Tech Podcast.
Thanks for having me. It was just great.
Thank you, Mike. Appreciate it.
In Episode 33, Hope Davis, MA, CHC takes us on a journey from personal challenges to leading educational innovation at Teach Tech U. Discover how her experiences fueled a passion for transformative technology in education, shaping the future with Project LEAR. An inspiring conversation for anyone intrigued by the power of tech to change lives. […]
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With guest speaker Marsha Maxwell, PhD, CETL, join us for a reflective journey on the advancements of AI through the years, focusing on how we can further develop these technologies to bridge educational divides.
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