Thank you so much for being on the K-12 Tech podcast. I’m really excited to talk about just the topic we’re going to talk about today, which is desired outcomes, and how you can plan around those.
I’m excited to be here too.
Great. We got Hallie on as well. My new co-host Hallie is newer to the company, and she’s already learned a ton. But she’s a really great conversationalist. We’ve actually known each other for a long time, so she’s there to, like, back me up if I ever get into a bind. But so. So, Colleen, I want to start specifically with this, your journey. You’ve been in education for quite a few years, but how did you get into that? When did you know you wanted to go into education or be a teacher and then kind of walk us through that journey?
Yeah, that’s a really interesting journey, actually. I’m currently at a district in Arizona called Chandler Unified School District, which is the second largest school district in Arizona and currently serve as a chief technology officer but have had a definite interesting journey to get to this point. I knew gosh when I was five years old that I wanted to be an educator. I always tell a story that I would play in my parents’ garage, and I had a chalkboard, and I would buy candy with my allowance or whenever I got a little extra money back, make my siblings sit there and listen to me on time, and I’d give them candy so they would listen and be great students. And I loved writing on the chalkboard and went through different things throughout my high school career, and then still ended up really wanting to be a teacher. And I went to the university, and I went through a couple degrees and ended up with a biology or biology degree, and I got to be a certified athletic trainer.
So a really interesting journey up to the education point landed in Chandler 27 years ago as a physical education teacher and a certified athletic trainer. I did that for a few years, then wanted to move on and served as a student government advisor and taught sports medicine, all sorts of different classes, and then decided to move to a new high school. And I got into leadership as a dean and I went to high schools and really found our student information system really intriguing and learning on my own. And I really got to have a knack for technology. And fast forward a couple of years, ended up on a special assignment at the district office, and that technology knack was noticed. And can you bring data? Can you pull this information from an information system? What can you do? And really was a resource at the district level for our information system. And then a couple of years into that, our I.T. Department decided to program our own student information system, and the superintendent in charge of that area asked me to come over as project manager on an 18 to 24-month project. Well, I learned baptism by fire, how to develop software, software development lifecycle, project management, and everything that goes into state reporting, all of that without that background.
And it really was a great year. I mean, it was a very tough year, but it really was the foundation of my technology education. And then from there, I served as the director of System and applications for about seven years, went over to Instructional technology for a few years, and then 15 years later was asked to oversee all of technology a couple of years ago. And here I am, 15 years in the department and have served in all of the different roles and worked with the different departments. So it’s really been a very interesting journey. I’ve never had selected to go to any of the positions, but definitely the position I serve now that I can combine both education and tech. They’re both super passionate about both. So I like that I’m in this position. I’m able to impact students and be that tech-nerdy person that I am.
Yeah, so fascinating. I remember when we did our intro call, you told me that you helped create a school service, and I’m like, That sounds like a nightmare because I know current big SIS’s are still not even figured out, and they’re always being developed. And that and I love how your journey starts as your a biology major and that all the way to somehow you’re you become the CTO of one of the largest districts in Arizona and like you learn how to program, and I talk about this a lot on the podcast I think we talked about it to our intro call. It is like being a CTO.
You have to be able to solve problems on your own and figure things out because there’s not really anyone you can go to, especially at a district level. Like no one knows everything right.
Right. I found that just absolutely fascinating. And I think my science background and my love of learning, and my curiosity really played to my strengths and technology and part of biology, solving problems and everything is writing a hypothesis and testing it. And all of that training really created great experiences for me to be a great technologist. And that’s, I mean, really when I really get into that really sweet spot of joy is when I’m problem-solving, how can I go into the situation and make it better, whether it’s picking the right application or solving this whole problem or any number of things that we deal with, and that is really what drives me is as the problem-solving part of it.
Yeah, that’s amazing. I know this is what we’re focusing on for the call, but I’m actually just curious. When you were creating the system, what ended up being like the hardest part of that? Was it security? Because you’re dealing with pieces? Was it really just stuff working together? Was it the coding and everything working together? I’m just really curious because that’s such a huge undertaking.
It was I mean, all of that, you know, we were not a software shop, and so we had to learn how to be business analysts. What are the users, and then how do we QA all of those processes with a team of few learning all of the different functionalities that you really need in an SIS is pretty broad and even more so now. But, still back then and then, we had a state report also. So all of that data that we collected, we had security, we had all the things that think we’re concerned about here. But then we also had to take that data and use the state parameters and send that data out so we might get funded. So it was a really big project that I came into it going, okay, okay, what do I need to learn? And that one year really helped me understand how I needed to learn and apply knowledge. And it was just a constant learning cycle for me and for all of us. And we got to the point of, you know, we realized that it was too big of a job if we didn’t have more resources for the project.
So we decided that we didn’t want to be a software shop and went out and purchased one. But it was probably some of the best learning we did as a district and as a tech team because we learned all the things that we needed and all the functionality that we needed and all the different elementary and scheduling and grade books and all the things that that information system does. And then really got to learn what state reporting was and, you know, how you funded and all the data behind that. So with that knowledge, we were able to go on and really do a great job in procuring a new system for ourselves.
Yeah, that’s fascinating because, especially at a large district level, it’s not like we’ll try this software out. It doesn’t work. After a couple of months, we’ll switch. It’s like really, you’re kind of married for at least a little bit of time, depending on how integrated as to why you’re choosing. So like, even though maybe that SIS that you guys created didn’t end up being the final solution, it could have saved you so much time and effort. Being able to be an expert, going out to be a purchaser of that.
It did, and we actually got it in 30. I think it was maybe 27 at the time, 27 elementary school. So it was operational. We’re able to do all the things that we needed to do to report to the state and and probably not the best functionality, but it at least at all the things that we needed to do. But when we transitioned, we had two SIS’s at the time, but the experiences building the elementary system allowed us to really purchase the best student information system for K-12. So it really was very frustrating and it was, you know, at the time, probably not the best experience. But looking back, there are so many lessons learned personally and professionally and from organizations out of control.
Out of curiosity.. sorry.
I’m sure in that, though, you learned how to tackle newer, bigger projects together, too, and how to figure out like what you need. And then you definitely appreciate the value of what you bought, too.
Yes. After knowing the hardship and finding that there are so many, I mean, I learned how to project manage, I learned how to execute a software development lifecycle. I learned how to QA I learn how to do business, analyze what our business processes were. So there were so many learnings that happened during that time for sure.
All right. I have to ask, which SIS, did you land on after that whole process?
Infinite Campus. And we’ve had Infinite campus for about 11, 11 years now
And then, and obviously, there’s Skyward Power School or kind of the bigger ones in the campus as well. What was like the differentiator when you were choosing those was like, okay, we’re going with infinite campus for this was that it was more better curtailed to Arizona-based reporting or what were some of like the differentiators that you
I think all the differentiators were. It came in and what our end users needed and wanted and where we’re going, Infinite Campus had a great vision and was looking to the future of education and how it could be flexible and not just a straight student information system and the recording. Probably what we had to solution. But the end and the reporting was probably better than the other solution from a state reporting. We had to do some different things from our programmatic standpoint or infinite campus, but from the user, An infinite campus knocked it out of the ballpark for us during that evaluation.
That’s awesome. I love hearing like why people use different softwares because especially in ed tech, it’s kind of interesting how every district chooses something different. I like hearing that kind of back story, too.
But it really, really taught us through that time. And I’m taking this through my journey that it can’t be one one seat at the table. That technology is driving that decision. You have to have technology up there and users and whatever other departments are there and put all of the things that each of those folks need and prioritize and really make a group decision that really helped me build that consensus.
So we’re not, you know, when I came into a technology leadership role, I didn’t want to drive all the decisions. I wanted to create this solution with people and come to the table like this is important, but it’s not going to drive The only decision that your needs are to. And how do we come to a compromise that we fit for both of us?
Yeah, I love that over like the last few years. Obviously COVID was challenging for a lot of, you know, CTOs. What are some of the bigger hurdles that you’ve had to get over? Our biggest challenges you’ve worked through in this new progression?
Well, COVID of course, wasn’t. I took over leadership of the tech department the year after COVID So COVID was very hard on every technology center, every profession. I wouldn’t say it was just us in education. And after that exhausting year is taking over a department that had been under three different leaders and trying to bring it together, along with recovering from COVID and trying to further education. So there’s just a lot of different balls in the air. When I took leadership, I was very fortunate that I’ve been in leadership for, you know, let’s say, ten years when I took over as the executive leader and that all the skills I built up to that point helped me focus on the right things, on culture, on partnering and prioritizing all of that, all the things that we had to get done. Because in our district during COVID, and I’m sure everybody was the same, we were putting out fires. We weren’t necessarily moving forward or looking at our network and determining, you know, did we need to upgrade our Wi-Fi or wear our switches?
We’re really just trying to educate students and get through, you know, 20, 21, 21, 22. So when I came in, I was like, we still had a little fires that we’re putting out, but it was time to really assess where were we and how do we catch up from being in that crisis mode for such a long time, and that was challenging. Along with the culture building, I needed to do with a department that was in under three different leaders, very different types of leaders, and bringing that d
Yeah, I can see how that’s really challenging. Especially everyone has different leadership styles and then there’s loyalties and everything else. But I think sometimes crisis brings people together and it’s, you know, especially running a, you know, a good-sized organization, you know, here you can see how just getting one or two of the right people going in the right direction, everyone comes alongside of them. And it’s hard work.
It’s been a journey, and we’ve really been intentional on the culture building. And, you know, retention and attraction of talent is always a concern. And for education CTOs and really focusing on that culture has been tremendous. We’ve, we’ve made huge strides and a couple of years, and I really see once you create that culture in that environment or people want to be the solutions and the problem solving and the collaboration and exceed your expectations. And it’s really been tremendous to see what, with the right environment, what the staff can do. And we are friendly staff, or we’ve been able to get to do a lot of projects around time.
Yeah, I think specifically in technology, not everybody is equal in their output. I’ve learned this over the years. I’ve had some technicians that can do three or four times what somebody else and not that they’re better of a person or anything, but there’s just if you can get a team of highly motivated people, they can accomplish more than three or four X, you know.
You’re absolute, and I see that every day. And, as you know, we’ve been able to update our wireless put-in. I think we put in 11,000 devices last year, updated our printers, and that amount of things. So they all get done with very under-resourced staff. It has been incredible. And I owe it a lot to the culture building and our folks coming together and being a team.
Yeah, I think that’s like a really good segway into the actual topic of the podcast, which I love this and I think this is actually a topic that came up on another podcast talking about how a lot of CTOs and tech directors don’t have a lot of planning and financial experience. And the topic that you were passionate about and wanted to talk about was how to plan through desired outcomes before you go and spend money, before you go and launch initiatives, and talking about working with your CFO and superintendent. So can you talk a little bit about that and how you use that in your position, your district?
It’s been quite a journey, and I guess not perfect, and we’re still perfecting it. But we started out about two years ago in 21 with rebuilding our strategic plan and involving all the right Cabinet members and our teachers and our leadership and really creating a plan that would bring us into the future. That said, a lot of districts do that, and then they put it on the shelf and they put it in front of the website, but they don’t necessarily use that as their guiding principle to make decisions. And so what we’ve been able to do is put real actionable strategies in place. And then, from that strategic plan, I work with my CFO and say, okay, how do we align our budget and our projects to what we want to accomplish, and then how do we prioritize? We can’t do everything at once. And if we are spending money in it doesn’t, it doesn’t fit into that strategic plan.
Why are we spending the money and having that right Cabinet-level discussion really starting out with the outcome and that strategic plan really paints that that visionary picture of where we want to go. And that’s really, you know, a different it’s been it’s been a lot of conversation, a lot of really coming to the table with an open mind because a lot of times we just want to say this is my problem, here’s a solution or what solution do you have for me? And we don’t really look at where we want to ends. And I use the example of a communication tool. And I was asked, you know, what do we have so we can use it and really work on our marketing communication plan. And I, I kind of backed up and I said, okay, where do we want to go?
Like, what is our what is our end goal for communication? What do you want it to look like for parents, for students, for our teachers? And paint that picture and tell me what kind of functions we need and then we’ll come in and decide what kind of solution or solutions we need. And that is met with some resistance. I can’t say that everyone is like, oh, Colleen, that’s such a great conversation. That’s really a tough conversation. And people there’s pushback and like, just get me something, because a lot of times we’re getting that, you know, I just want to put out the fire. I just want to get this task done. But it really, really helps you be more strategic with your spending and really with what with even implementing technology. Because what we don’t want is something and it doesn’t quite work and add something else or have to move to something else. So if you’re really thoughtful on the outcomes you want, then you go into that purchaser or that you know that services or whatever you’re trying to procure and you know where what success looks like. And that’s not always how we do things.
We just look at this. I need a communication tool, or I need an asset management tool, or I need a budgeting tool, and then we just go find one without really knowing what we want and what success looks like.
Yeah. Can you give me like maybe an example of how this helped save you money or helped guide you like to purchase the right thing. You kind of talked a little bit about that, with your SIS system, but just as like an example for the listeners to be like, like this is this is an example of like how it maybe saved your guidage for a specific solution.
Well, I would give our communication tool. We created a new department for communications and marketing. We hire an executive director, and we had a lot of different disparate communication tools. We had some analysis. They had some that were just for emergencies. We had some that the teachers were using that might have been free. And when we first started, that department came in, and the sup. came in we were talking about it, and I was like, what do we have and what quiz planned? And so, you know, we could do an audit and say where we are. But then we stopped and said, okay, is this where we want to be? Do we want to be somewhere different? What do we need? And so it allowed us to take the time and not just buy additional toolsets and bring them in and just implement, implement or try to solve.
You know, I always call it putting my finger in the dike, you know, just like all I’m trying to plug and allow us to have the conversations we needed, and we ended up with a really very slick communication tool that’s going to replace multiple communication tools that we have out there and save us money and streamline it for the parent. And that really, you know, the cost savings are always important because we are underfunded. But it’s really, to me, more important that we streamline, and we really have this goal that it’s better for teachers, it’s better for parents, and it’s better for kids. And it’s one one-stop shop that allows us to do all the different things that any three or four schools weren’t doing. And now we have one platform that does that. And so that kind of conversation helped us really pick the right solution instead of continuing. So, you know, just limp along and add little pieces to the pie to try to solve just one or two problems instead of looking at it from a strategic standpoint.
Yeah, I love that. So I will just say I’m a new tech director, and my CFO and my superintendent are always really, really busy. How did you go about that? Do you guys just have a meeting planned every week or every month, or how are you getting the time to really think through this? Because when you said that, it was kind of like, yeah, that’s what needs to happen. But maybe not everybody has that time or hasn’t made that plan to get that time. So how do you go about making sure you’re getting that good quality time with those people?
Yeah, I’ve said this numerous times. I think post-COVID and how important technology is and education and the educational experience. Now the chief technology officer or director of tech or whatever the name is has to have a seat at the executive table. Every single department in our business, every single teacher, there is something that technology touches and every single one of those aspects now. So if you don’t have a seat at the table that makes those conversations all the more difficult. So I would say step number one is get a seat at the table with the right information. A lot of times you have a tech, and that may be a to other reports up, and then the tables that don’t necessarily have the knowledge of tech there, it doesn’t mean that you have to have an assistant position or executive position.
But the conversations that happen at the strategic level need to involve technology experts and management. So I think that’s the first thing most good thing is being able to have that really kind of partnership. I come into it. I’m not asking you questions to question you. I’m asking it to make us better and being willing to take those risks with people and not just go out and and select the easy solution and not have the right conversations. And that I did have to push at first before and I always talked about like I’m your expert, you know, here’s what I want to do. I’m not trying to create more work for us or more conversations or, you know, more meetings. Who wants that? But I really want us to be really intentional, and thoughtful, so we don’t have to waste more time at the end.
We spend a little time at the beginning. We’re really going to lead to success. And it’s not something that happens overnight, and it really, really comes down to that relationship building and having those right conversations and sitting with your CFO and really painting the picture that I spent a whole year. Here’s all the things tech, and here’s all the things that we need and not really just wanting to when they came up say, I need X million dollars, I need this to do it. Well, let’s look at we’re going to replace our wireless. What is the end of life? What is the end of life for our devices? What is the end of life for our servers? And really having those conversations not just on all the other business outcomes, but how do we want our network? And it’s become an essential part.
There’s no downtime anymore, right? You know, yesterday, when I was a teacher of the Internet went down, it was no big deal. Right now, it’s like, what? Let’s take a bus and send all the kids home. Right? And so it’s just become such a central part of educating our kids. We have to have the right conversations and be willing to push a little bit and say, you know, I’m not just going to check things off my list. I really want to make decisions that are thoughtful, that are strategic, and that are budget-conscious and, and be willing to have those conversations with your CFO and your superintendent.
How do you get everybody on the same page then? Because you have these large goals and initiatives. How do you overcome the challenge of giving, getting everyone to buy into, to those?
You know, I think it’s rooted in, and I think CTO CIOs need to have really great relationship building and leadership skills, how to come to the table and not let your ego say this is the right thing, right to have the right conversation, to ask the right questions. And once you do that and you build that credibility, then I’m here to partner with you. And once that happens, then it goes a little bit easier and smoother. But it’s really, you know, working on your skills with other leaders and showing that you’re there to partner with them to find the best solution and educating.
Why am I asking these questions? Here’s why. This is the outcome you want. Here’s what I want you to look at. Here’s the strategy that we have, and it takes a lot of time. It’s easier just to plug and play. I’m not going to lie about that, but it actually is less work in the end to do the work upfront.
Yeah, the focus on investment, this is we’re investing. The time we spend right now could save us hundreds if not thousands in our tens, if not hundreds or millions of dollars in the next ten years. And I think I think you can’t do that unless you’re confident in your in your in the outcome that you can get out of that. I think, you know, I talked to a lot of CTOs and tech directors, and I think a lot of times because they’re just always putting out fires they don’t get the time or don’t take the time to make it like, Hey, let me sit down and figure out what I want the next 5 to 10 years to look like, you know, what can I do to stop so I don’t have to be putting out fires?
And it is. And you know, I was in the leaders, and I heard once someone say that you have to put out fires that are going away, but you also have to make progress. So how do you balance that time and and really organize your day and have the conversations if you don’t have that capability with your leadership like I need to be doing, But because you want me to look forward, and that’s the only way. So you’re not not making really quick decisions and having to just put things into play without having the right conversations. But you are we all know that some days, all of our days are in. We just have to problem-solve for the day because something happens, the auditorium goes down, or the boardroom goes down again, and you do have those. But I also think that if you put those things in place, they work with your CFO and you develop plans that are that look at all the things you have to do, then you don’t have as many fires. So it’s one of those things like if you don’t always be putting out fires, if you’re not moving forward and doing these things.
So how do you, you know, stop and start working towards that? It is difficult because I would tell you my first year on the road, I was a fire, but ah, and that’s all I did. And that you are really focused on, on time with my CFO and culture building and doing the things that I know is going to move us forward. So it doesn’t always happen the first or second year. You have to give yourself some grace and some time and build relationships, and I’ve been in the district for 27 years. Does a lot to you now, and you come into a new situation that’s different than when you’ve been. And you know, we’re all the skeletons are buried and in the tech department and all of those different things. So that’s very helpful too.
You mentioned something in the total list I was getting in from wrong is just like being servant hearted in having those conversations. And you said kind of like putting your pride at the door. I think there’s some confusion on confidence and pride. I think people get mixed up like it’s it’s not wrong to be confident. Now that’s not pride and also in your confidence, you know, how can I serve you like even your CFO and like, superintend like, hey, I’m just I’m doing this because I want to serve and serve the district. And I think coming at it that way with that tone also will help. Sounds like also really helps to cultivate those relationships, number one. And number two, it probably changes the tone of those meetings a lot of times too and gets more buy-in from those.
You’re absolutely right. And that’s a bit like being an educator and spending time in the classroom. It’s really important to me and I’ve always had to find ways of really connecting the way I connected with students. And really, if you keep your core mission, and that’s making the education experience better and better every year for students, I want better for our students than I had and the next students better than they had it, and so on and so forth. And so really, you know, I use that in my culture. And every conversation I have, I’m here to make that experience better for kids.
And so if I keep that at the core and remember that, what’s the outcome I want, then that conversation with leadership or whoever and problem solving becomes about the goal that making it better for students or the outcome that we’re looking at, not about the people and not about, you know, whatever other things get in the way of communication. And when you do that, and you really know your own purpose and your center, it really helps those conversations for sure.
Yeah, I have a good friend. He was a CTO in a larger district in Indiana, which was a much smaller district than Arizona. He just got an award at a recent event. And he was just out there and he was like tearing up because he was a CTO. I think for quite a few years. And he just said it’s always been about the kids, and he’s like tearing up with, and I’ll we’ll start tearing up when we’re there just because, like he meant. And that’s what made him a great leader in his district. And I can hear that from you too. It’s about the kids like and you know, and it is a huge culture builder I’ve seen in districts, and that’s about the kids. It’s so it’s just interesting those technology directors that preach that I’ve always seen that culture
And, you know, I could sit here for hours and tell you stories. So I think it’s important for my son, for our staff to get out there and see the end result of our work. But it really when you see it, and really it really fills your bucket and brings in joy, and then you come back and work even harder because you know you want to make it better because it really you can see it when, when you’re impacting, whether it’s esports for kids co-curricular or your impact that you’re putting in in the classroom and the joy and creating a different learning experience for this generation. It really is what keeps us all going.
Yeah, I love that. So like it, closing us out. I always like to have, you know, just advice for others like CTO. So with this specifically for desired outcomes, what are maybe three guiding principles or three tips or tricks that you would say, Hey, if you can do these three things, I’ll help get you on the right track?
I think that if you want to work on business outcomes, that it requires a lot of conversations and a lot of relationship building. So one thing that you need to focus on is developing yourself and personal growth and development and a leader and knowing yourself and knowing how to build relationships and have the right conversations, whether it’s a superintendent, a teacher, or the h.r. Payroll tech that you’re working with. So personal development is really important in order for you to have those conversations? I would say the other two come in pretty easy, as is using the documents and your strategic documents or strategic plan and your goals to guide your decision making.
And if it’s not in a position that helps you do that, is having the conversation with your leadership team, with your superintend plan of what? What are our goals? What is our strategic document? What what, what, what is. Northstar So what is great look like and really getting either on paper or, you know, not paper, right? And it’s on a document or something along. So we know what’s the measure by like where are we going? Are we just existing, or is there some other place that we’re trying to achieve? Think about having those conversations with. I need to know what success looks like and I need to know what are the outcomes that we’re striving for.
So if that’s not in place, working on a plan to get that in place and that’s in place using that for decisions, personal development have those. And then just the third part is just going at it that way. So you have those two things. This is just starting to have the conversations. You know, I don’t. I just don’t want to plug and play solutions. I want to make sure that we’re strategic about that and we have the best outcomes. We all know that when you implement something, and then it’s not the right thing, and you have to switch, there’s a lot of fatigue that comes with that, and that exists in our environment now because of COVID. So how do you know? You can even use that as a reason for, Hey, I don’t want to do this. I want to make sure when we implement something, it’s the right solution or, you know, at least a step during time. So what does success look like? What is a plan? We’re having that come to the table with a relationship and then being brave and having that conversation of what is that? What are we really trying to accomplish instead of what? What problem do you want me to solve? And I just plug in the solution.
Now, I love that Colleen, and thank you for your passion for education and everything. I’m sure it sounds like you’re you’ve done so much for your district and I really appreciate you being on the K-12 tech podcast.
Thank you.
In Episode 33, Hope Davis, MA, CHC takes us on a journey from personal challenges to leading educational innovation at Teach Tech U. Discover how her experiences fueled a passion for transformative technology in education, shaping the future with Project LEAR. An inspiring conversation for anyone intrigued by the power of tech to change lives. […]
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With guest speaker Marsha Maxwell, PhD, CETL, join us for a reflective journey on the advancements of AI through the years, focusing on how we can further develop these technologies to bridge educational divides.
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