All right. I am excited today for the K-12 tech podcast. I have a lot of new in the director of education technology at Camp at Unified and Orange County, California. Thanks for being on.
Hi, how are you? Thank you for having me. It’s my first podcast. So excited to be here today.
All right. You’re famous. Your first one. I thought, well, we’re excited. I’m excited to take this journey with you. You know, we are connected on LinkedIn and I love what you were doing at your district. So what’s start what’s just kind of started from the beginning. I like to go with everybody. I love people, where they came from, and how they got to the position they’re in. So why don’t you walk me through when you knew you wanted to be in education and maybe where your specialty in technology or your advancement, and that’s kind of rocked you to where you are today.
Absolutely. So I always say I’m probably pretty lucky because I knew I wanted to be a teacher since I was in first grade. And that’s not typical of people. But I know personally I wanted to be a teacher because I was an EL student or I didn’t know English until I started school. And so my first-grade teacher was just one of those people who really inspired me to help others. And so that’s where I led my educational journey, where it started by, say, starting as an elementary school teacher for about six years. And during that time, I got my master’s in edtech and knew I was really curious about technology, and I knew it would be really helpful for my students at some point. And so then, after I got my masters, I was interested in supporting not just my students, but really looking at impacting students on a larger scale. And so I was actually fortunate that my superintendent at the time, a very small district in Sacramento, and he was actually I actually went up to him and said, Hey, I really think that’s important to have some sort of tech support at each of our school sites. We have an English learner person in the school, so we just needed a tech person at the site.
And during that time, Chromebooks were not on the scene, yet the iPads are still there. I was using a little iPad mini, so my classroom, so really wanted to integrate technology in some way or form. And so that’s what I asked him to do. And surprisingly, he actually listened and we were able to have some sort of a technology person in the district. And so with that experience, I was able to move down into net tech, toss that teacher and special assignment position, and for a new district in Southern California here actually where we opened the 1 to 1 Chromebook program about 19 years ago.
So kind of jumping into a place where Chromebooks are brand new and really looking forward to helping support teachers because I knew, you know, new technology, how do we help our teachers and students be? I’m proficient with the technology. So there, I was able to start working with teachers, administrators, all sorts of learning tools. And I then became the director of tech. I worked in San Diego for our unified school district. So for six years there, I was able to really support our team, was really able to transform teaching practices, continue with the Gwendolyn program, and really working with teachers and students again to really integrate technology in a meaningful way.
So this past year, I have now been at Capistrano Unified and again at Orange County in the same position, and really excited to again share my experience with what I’ve learned through the years of just kind of the EdTech piece, professional learning curve learning and four specific topics that really help teachers. Students really shift and shift their learning, really. And I know with A.I. right now, let’s try that new thing, really continuing to make changes and shift as technology always changes and really there to support teachers and students. So that’s really good. My passion background.
Yeah, that’s amazing. And, you know, well-said. So a couple of things to unpack. Are you said you were bilingual, so you didn’t learn English until you started school. Can you talk a little bit about that journey? Because one thing I’ve learned from people in technology is they’re very resilient in general, and their aptitudes and some felt a lot of new things. It is like an emerging field. I mean, you’re now like, well, if years ago when I was iPads or just iPods, you know, maybe some laptops, and then can you talk a little bit about maybe how that helps you on this journey? Or did that help with like elasticity of learning or anything like that?
Definitely. Well, I was actually born here in the U.S. for my parents want to just teach me our earliest book, Vietnamese. And I went to school. So I think being bilingual or being fluent in that language then when I went to school did help that transfer language. And so using that understanding as I became a teacher, really helped me understand my student population. So really understanding that piece of it. But when I started teaching and so, my districts have been turtle on, which is for there are a lot more English learners, students also in other districts where it’s not as diverse, but being able to understand that perspective that students learn in different ways is really helpful. So, you know, a strategy that might help, you know, what they call an English learner does help all students. So, for example, I always think of this example of when I’m working on a Google doc, the voice-to-text piece.
So for some students, that might be helpful for them, you know, they learn English, or they’re learning a new concept. So really looking at the use of schools to support students in different ways and really understanding there’s just different needs. Everybody learns in a different way. So that has really helped me to share my experience with other teachers to then help their students. So that’s really important.
So you talked about early on in your career getting your Masters in education technology, obviously years ago. What was that focused on, then? Because 1 to 1 devices were not super prominent, doesn’t sound like at that time. What were they focused on, and what did they think the future was then?
Absolutely exactly what you said, and we called it Web 2.0 schools. And so there were some Web activities where you’re learning how to create a Web quest. I had to create…I had to learn Dreamweaver and..
Oh my Gosh, I completely forgot about Dreamweaver.
Exactly, I’m like, “oh, the end of Dreamweaver.” And we kind of looked at different ways that you-I think Smart Boards were at that time was pretty big. So looking at different tools and really looking at just interesting…
Really important, really important to say Smartboards, when you say Smart Boards you don’t mean interactive panels. You mean it’s a whiteboard that uses a projector that allows you to, like, write on it, right?
Remember the Promethean board, the different brands we had beginning. So I know some districts at the time had it. I personally, my school district I started teaching at. We had overhead. So it was really that discrepancy of some districts had funding to have all these tools and some didn’t. So it was interesting looking back at that time period and we learned a lot about it’s interesting, learn about Siri, just different now. We call it A.I. now, but at the time, it’s just people are not alone anymore. Technology is kind of around us. So try to think back to other classes we had, but it wasn’t 1 to 1 had each one one environment and that web 2.0 on. So it’s interesting.
Now, what was that like? Walk me through what were the big initiatives in your first position as director of education technology, and what were your initiatives? Because I’m guessing it was a lot more hardware and personal development. And what did you learn? And then what’s new about going to maybe a massive district on that level?
Yeah, absolutely. So I know in my first position as director of EdTech, one of the things that was really when I was at Tosa was that just learning about the tool, really thinking about how to use Google Docs, it’s just more about the tool. But I know when I became a director, it was really thinking about how do these tools support what you’re doing in the classroom? So then our team really had to shift our thinking and really focusing on innovative teaching practices.
So blended learning for those, it’s a term that’s been around for a while, but really looking at the use of technology and how it’s meaningful and how we can blend it together. And it’s not about being on the computer all day long. It’s how do you support learning with a device? So really shifting and that mindset of it’s not about the tool, it’s about how you use the tool. So what I would say, and we built our professional learning model around that concept and so and that changes, you know, year to year, different practices, just really focusing not about what tool.
What do you think was your biggest barrier in that area? Was it an older teacher generation that wasn’t used to that transition and buy-in, or I know sometimes teacher unions come up as being a difficult thing to work through? Can you talk a little bit about what those barriers were and maybe some ways you guys overcome?
Absolutely. Well, I know one of the biggest barriers was that we were not 1 to 1 at that time. So in one district I was in, It was one-to-one. Awesome. No, it was the shift was different. But then, we weren’t always one-to-one in my second district. And so that was one barrier; I think it took some time. But you sit by and it’s huge. And so it really took a tech department really working with our curriculum services department, really helping each had they understand the importance of it because I think as a whole, if everyone’s on board understands what the focus is, then it’s easy to be able to take people out those different learning strategies or innovative practices, so if you don’t have the buy-in from the leadership. Right.
And I was fortunate to work with awesome leaders who really had that, you know, strategic thinking behind technology integration. And so with that vision, we are able to then be able to support that work. But without that initial focus, it is tricky to be able to districtwide, you know, strategically build support and also the sides of the district, right. Depending on how much and schools you have to support, how many on your team of support, you know, either TOSAs or we call them innovation coaches. And that was also an issue because there were never enough coaches to be able to support district-wide.
Interesting. So going from a really small district to now a large district, what’s been the biggest difference you’ve seen? Is it faster to move in a smaller compared to a larger, or are there more funds potentially in a larger district which helps amplify that process?
Well, here in California, funding is based on the demographics, like they call it L Cap, and so it doesn’t add on the size of the district. It tends on the, you know, the area. So in my current district, in my previous district, we do not get the same funding that I received in my previous two districts. So it depends on where, you know, the budget piece of it. But I know that it is just one of those unrealistic.. It’s one of those things that we’re having to work through. So when you have different budget pieces to it, then you have to work through how you push out. So you’re only able to do so many things based on what it’s allocated. So it kind of depends on that piece
What are the things when you’re in a district that doesn’t have the funds? What are considered essentials, and then what are considered- if we had the funding, this is what we would love to do? And it’s a good topic because, like there are some districts that are like the technology department is just getting hammered all the time. You’re like, Hey, we need funding,” No,” keep the Chromebooks going, you know, and that’s it, right? And then, but then you have districts that have a lot of money, like interactive panels. We’re going to hire consulting firms to come in and, you know, everything. What does that look like? Like the things that are like considered the essentials, the things that are considered, you know, like, hey, this is on our roadmap when we can?
Right. I believe in my experience. I definitely believe that professional learning is huge and is important when you’re rolling out any sort of program that requires technologies, though. If you’re going to have devices, then it’d be important to have support for those things because, you know, not everyone, for example, not all teachers are, and they need additional support, you know, with to engage students with learning practices or pedagogies. So I think it’s really important to be able to have professional learning as a rock, probably. But I know sometimes it’s tricky when it’s a larger district or I’m new in this district. So I have lots of ideas, but it’s really important to be able to have that support. But I definitely believe that. And EdTech and IT departments really work well together, and especially in this day and age, now we need to work together so that we can support teachers making sure that where you have, you know, both sides to be able to give the best support for teachers.
Yeah, I love that. When we were doing our introductory call, we talked a little bit about AI and professional learning. And I mean, every state’s different. California is obviously one of the largest. I think it is a maybe it is the largest populated state in the United States. It’s bad that I don’t know that. Something like that. In California. Have there been any policies specifically around AI and education maybe more specific to you that you know of, and then how are you incorporating it in your district?
Absolutely. So I know it’s due February. So it’s only been a year. So I know currently in my district, and when I first started, the EdTech team that was already here has already started doing special learning for teachers and really sharing what it’s about, and I think as it continues to shift so quickly, as I shared for Orange County Department of Ed. They were offering some different workshops that we were learning, so we were able to join that piece. There’s some future AI trainings or conferences that our team is going to, so I know it’s happening. It’s really important that- and my goal is to work with other EdTech directors in our county to really see what they’re doing.
And so I had some other districts I’m working with as well to kind of see what their roadmap is. And our goal as our district is to really create some sort of a task force or a tech committee plan to really look at the different- to to one look at AI see what the uses are, really build for our teachers. So kind of a roadmap for what’s next. I definitely think next on that would be some sort of information or set to share out so that everyone’s kind of in the same place, but we’re all kind of working at the same place. It sounds like we’re going to be opening up ChatGPT for example, for our high school students in January. So that’s why we are open for students. We’re really looking at how, again, working with teachers and students really show them how to use it in an appropriate way
You know, what’s interesting is I know a lot of the concern that I’ve heard from the tech community has been like kids not doing the work, the research or whatever is required. Cheating is a big one. So how has education been trying to combat that? Is it being able to I know with Chromebooks, based on access points, you can restrict what’s on a device and what comes up on a Chromebook or an iPad. I know through the IPs you can just restrict it completely. But when it comes to homework, do you think that there’s going to be more writing required, like physical paper, or how are you as a district talking?
Well, I definitely think so. Speaking of Chromebooks, I know there’s no way to block every AI generated kind of program out there because if you block one, another comes up. And so again, our goal is to get back to digital citizenship, really looking at how districts are working on creating some specific A.I. digital citizenship lessons to once again remind students why, you know, digital footprint and all those things are really looking at it as a tool not to, you know, to mitigate some of that cheating piece. And I know Turnitin.com is something that we and our district and one of the things that we’ve shared at the ed tech department is really a conversation starter. You have students using the tool. You know, how can you have that conversation with that student to start that relationship to be able to pinpoint why that student might be using it.
So really, again, sharing about it versus saying now you can’t use it because I think that’s where there’s a lot of things that could happen. So there’s no way to block everything. We are 1 to 1 as well. And so our job is just to inform and really lay focus on how to use it in a meaningful way moving forward. I think going back to that, teachers may have to shift how they do homework or how they, you know, create lessons or activities for students to do. How do we use these types of tools to benefit that work, not to use that particular tool?
Yeah, it’s like it’s like when handheld calculators became like a thing. How with this tool there, it’s like, you know, I remember there used to be a saying it’s come up just their beams and stuff how like people back in that eighties and nineties are like, you’re not going to have a calculator on you at all times and, and, and on your cell phone and it’s the most powerful calculator ever. Great. And then now not only do you have a calculator, but I also have, as I pay for the premium version of ChatGPT, I’ve got this app right, which I’m going to have to do math. I can just say what I won’t like verbally, and I’ll just do it always.
So it’s like there is a sense to where I can understand completely how people are fearful of people losing their ability to reason. As they’re not having to do the research. It’s just kind of like perfectly coming to them. But the problem is, I can’t even go to a Google search bar anymore because it’s so bad compared to going to a chatbot like an AI Chatbot. So it’s interesting. I did a deep dive because I was thinking about how this is going to change education? I think number one, it added a ton of value to the 1 to 1 environment, right? Massive. Because if you’re a teacher who might not be in the most technologically advanced industry, how much work for you? Quickly. Secondly, I think it I think it bridges a cultural gap to be able to relate to people who are much younger. Just with my boys, just my, my kids trying to explain to them like, are my kids going to Pokemon? Okay, We’re like, Hey, let’s do a math problem using Pokemon Or using basketball or using things to relate to students and maybe to explain how if you remember, like, what am I going to use trigonometry right now on a day-to-day basis?
If a teacher would have been like, Hey, you know what? Okay, go like, This is how and this is the math behind it. I think creating- I think it’s going to really help schools pull in a polytechnic way of learning easily around projects and stuff like that. All right. Hey, I want to create a project based on assembling this rocket. I want them to learn math. I want them to learn history. I want them to learn science. And guess what? I’m a teacher. I’m a fifth-grade teacher. And I don’t know. I’m not a genius on any of these. You’re learning, right? That excites me because I would have learned 50x in school would have been more likely.
Yes, It definitely allows you to personalize learning for students in a way that you wouldn’t have done before. Right? Time is always a huge thing for teachers. And so, if you have a tool like ChatGPT, there are so many other ones out there. I think Magic AI is one that Magic School bus. I think I forgot the name of it. The teachers love it because it helps with lesson planning and how you’re able to do not only personalize it for a couple of students, but for all your students. And that would be such a great way to remove time that you had planned. But now you’re working with students individually on their projects. So I think as you’re sharing, that’s a great way to be able to maximize your time and also support the students in your classroom because, you know, everyone’s different. Everyone likes different things.
Okay, So I have a controversial question for you.
Okay.
What- bringing AI, bringing ChatGPT, what areas of education do you think that that’s going to disrupt, meaning something that was used a lot by teachers use a lot by administrator hours that will not be used now not use now but will be transitioned out, especially with the I don’t even know if they’ve officially announced it. It sounds like Microsoft is going to fully absorb open AI, which I think is kind of like the end game for them, and I think that will add a lot of validity to it being used at an enterprise level. We’re on the waiting list to be on the Enterprise. Let me know. I’m curious, though, in education, where do you think that I think a lot of people are talking about all the great things like, like all these things that used to be done are going to be obsolete.
Well, just the person when you said that was like phrasing. Well, handwriting, right? Cursive writing, that’s when I think of examples where everything is digital, right? So we’re not writing as much, but I mean, still an important piece. I’m curious. I know I’ll think of writing for now. For example, like I know you would peer edit you would be able to have other people look at your writing with the use of AI you had that built into that feedback for you. So and as much as you want collaboration, that could, you know, so that there’s less opportunities to speak. So that’s where as a teacher you’d want to make sure you build in that time for collaborations.
Communication with students might be an example if they’re using it for other things. And what about things like coding? Like in the past, you had to learn how to code, but now with the newest version, right or you can just put in the code it gives for you. You would have to understand if the codes are correct or not. Right. So that foundation just learned that foundation. But some of that might be already done for you now with AI.
Yeah. And that was like one of the bigger takeaways Someone’s like, it codes. And I’m like, sweet. I don’t know how to code, but it can code for me. I realized like this is worthless if I don’t know, number one, how to apply and, number one, how to develop. It’s right, like I’m pretty good at like even now. Still, with the premium version, it still consistently messes up math, right? So you have to like it if you don’t have good general knowledge, you know like that seems wrong to lead you down the wrong path. So there’s still going to be a lot of need for interaction, and it’ll get better over time. But you’re right, I think the base level of coding, so I think probably the education around coding was right. This is how you write code. This is how you understand code.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And also the images, and the image generators.
Yeah. DALL-E.
We can’t have a real photo anymore.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s going to be, that’s going to be interesting. I don’t know if you’ve seen at all Meta’s new VR I stuff that they are doing.
Not yet.
Yeah. There was basically, you know, Meta came out they wanted to be this 3D 4D world. I don’t know how you explain it, but Lex Friedman is a very famous podcaster, and Mark was the CEO on Facebook, and he, you know, he was there, and they were interviewing, and it looked like they were sitting in the same room.
But actually, they were both thousands of miles away on VR, and they do 3D images of your body. Like it inputs you like in this environment where you can interact with others. It’s pretty insane. But I wonder how that’s going to change. Maybe teachers won’t even need to be in the classroom anymore. Who knows what they will work on? Maybe everyone’s at home. I mean, I’m curious if homeschooling is going to become when I say homeschooling, I mean still being able to stay home and do school. Through this 3D A.I. environment.
I definitely think that will lead to different pathways. As you said. I think there’s still that important piece of the in-person education part. I think it allows more opportunities for students who may not learn the best in that way or maybe have other things going on I definitely think that piece will be helpful for those students. I think if anything, I mean, it will help students, then it will change a little bit. So who knows how that will help out a bit.
So you mentioned something earlier and I’m just so curious about this- that Orange County schools, school government has a new position called the AI coordinator, you know, explaining what that job’s responsibility is. But it’s the first time I’ve heard of that being in a district.
And as far as the districts in Orange County, I know a fellow colleague of mine had just gone to position as the administrator for innovation in artificial intelligence. So a very new position. But I know some of the work that our team has done. There have been other districts that have had it that have a coordinator, So I was just thankful that we have someone in place for Orange
County to be able to kind of help, you know, connect. That works. I think what’s important is that everyone’s kind of in the same place, but now there’s a resource to connect as a whole. So I just think that’s unfortunate. The positions are absolutely brand new. So I think, you know, I can speak with him if anything, but it’s just a great way to get resources and be able to have that support as we are moving forward in this school year.
Yeah, that seems like a very, very good use of a position to know that, you know, somebody who’s got a vested interest and their sole focus, as I will be implementing this, are we thinking through these positions? Because I don’t think that’s fair for a superintendent with everything they have going on, even a tech director.
Right. They’ve got 99, you know, they’re already 110%, you know, overloaded. It does make sense that there would be somebody, especially at a large level, maybe in the smaller states. There are new regions where they know that that doesn’t make sense, especially for the implementation. And then for security reasons. Right. Act and then someone who can lead those conversations with administrators. Well, that was fascinating.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, the last piece you brought up was professional learning. Can you talk maybe in detail about what professional learning looks like and what you’re trying to do at your district? And then what is a good outcome from that?
Definitely. I know as a result of COVID, some of the things that I know in my previous work are districts, and we really had to shift the model of professional learning. So and a lot of research, right, that you go to a PD or training, you don’t get that small percentage of information that you actually will take back with. You might take a couple that gets with you. But for that implementation piece, it’s really important how that ongoing professional learning support and so with that in mind and now with everything happening with COVID as well, using the conferencing is a really great option and in-person obviously, and then the async option. So I think one operationalized you mean the different modes of learning for teachers and so really utilizing those examples.
So here at Capistrano Unified, are districts huge, and we only had two total sets so we cannot be in every school, so we cannot train every single teacher I have. You are in our team. So we do use some of those asynchronous professional learning options where we create something, we create that module, and teachers are able to do that learning on their own. So that’s something that’s been… has to happen. Or we used, you know, the video recordings and things like that. So I think the end goal of professional learning is really looking at some of the worst I’ve done this year, looking at some of the tools that we have in our current district that we pay for. And when it comes to who was on this really important side, the social learning to go with it. And so we’ve been offering different menus, different tools tied to innovative practices or teaching practices.
And because of our small team really focusing on those, you know, sort of five, six tools that we’re focusing on and then giving schools choice. So then they can choose some different options of learning that will then support them in the classroom. So we kind of had to be creative with our time and, you know, being able to be with our school sites, really giving that choice, whether it’s in-person or async. So really, the goal is that we’re focusing on the different schools that are or for our district. So we have a process there.
Now when teachers go through that training that you’re creating in those video modules, is there a way for you to know who’s done it, and their certifications? How do you hold teachers accountable and give them something kind of like give them at least like a record, like, Hey, you’ve gone through this training, and then-is there is there anything you’re doing district-wide for you to see what improvements were made, Any numbers moved?
I know many of the districts I’ve been in didn’t. Everyone has different models of capturing that. And so I know we have we use a program called Learning where we are able to build a professional learning module. And so when teachers go into it, they sign it, they have an account. So it keeps track of those learning opportunities. So we then see it, and we can see the data on it. You know, it’s completed. Then we’re able to transfer to the teachers here, earn credits, and they earn a, or they earn time for that information. They are then learning so, and so they do it all in a similar process. They log their time, and they get a reward for it. So different every district. But the opportunity for them then get a continuing education is ongoing.
Yeah. That’s Awesome. That’s amazing. Thank you. And thank you for all you’re doing for your district. And I’m excited to see you know, it seemed like you’re doing really big things. I’m excited to see where your career ends, and I’m sure you’re not even close to being done. Well, thanks so much for being on the K-12 Tech Podcast. A little excited to see where your career goes.
Thank you so much.
In Episode 33, Hope Davis, MA, CHC takes us on a journey from personal challenges to leading educational innovation at Teach Tech U. Discover how her experiences fueled a passion for transformative technology in education, shaping the future with Project LEAR. An inspiring conversation for anyone intrigued by the power of tech to change lives. […]
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With guest speaker Marsha Maxwell, PhD, CETL, join us for a reflective journey on the advancements of AI through the years, focusing on how we can further develop these technologies to bridge educational divides.
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