Hello. You’re listening to the K-12 tech podcast, bringing you insights into the world of education technology. Stay tuned as we discuss the past, the present and most importantly, the future of technology in our schools.
Thanks, everybody for listening to the K-12 tech podcast. This is the fourth episode of The Origins, and we’re adding on at the end a focus of the guest choice.Today we have Bill Stein.
Hello. Thank you for having me.
You came from the furthest corner of Indiana. I appreciate you making the long drive to the studio.
If you think of Indiana as a boot, we are in the toe of the boot down in Mount Vernon, Indiana. Yeah, Far away.
It’s about, what, four, four and a half hours?
Was five and a half hours, Yeah.
And then you have, at least you have the time change.
Yeah, the time change and then change back.
Yeah. So it’s going to be bad going home. Yeah, I’m familiar with that. So obviously, the Origins podcast, we start with obviously the origin of it. Like what? What’s your journey like getting into being what you kind of are today. Can you start us out? You know, middle school, high school, whatever you feel like you started to you started to lean or go towards this direction of your career.
Well, like a lot of stories, this one’s going to start with my mother. She and my dad…
Starting at birth. Okay, good.
Yeah, she was there. Allegedly. No, she bought me an Atari for my birthday because I asked for it, and everyone else was getting them. You know, it’s just a game console, and I got it. I got some games, I played some games. I was just very bored with it. I didn’t like the fact that all I could do was consume. You know, I won’t. I am more of a doer.
So I asked her if she would take it back and get me a Commodore 64 computer, which also has a cartridge for games. So it does both. You could play games, and then you can also create using the basic programming language that comes with the Commodore 64. So, I was able to get the best of both worlds and then write these little basic programs to do different things that I thought were interesting. The problem is I would write these very long programs, and I had there was no way to save it. So once you turn the power off, it was gone.
So eventually, I did upgrade and get a tape player connected to the Commodore 64, though you could actually save your programs too. So that’s the spark that got me into computers. And then fast forward into high school or Evansville North High School where I went, they developed a computer math program, a class, and I really wasn’t into school per se, very, very much. I struggled in most of my classes, not because I, you know, I wasn’t very smart. I was I think I was just bored.
But I took this computer math class and I, I could have taught the class. So it was a very natural thing for me. And I don’t know if they knew what to do with me because I needed more. So they developed a computer math two class, and I was literally the only person in that class. So that class challenged me a little more, and I just kept developing computer skills and just hooking stuff up at home with my stereo and just experimenting, really. Hands-on person. I don’t really thrive in the sit and get type, you know, situation when it comes to school.
So anyway, I graduated from North High School, and I did what everyone else was doing, which was I enrolled in the University of Southern Indiana. My goal was to get, you know, I forget what they call the degree back then, but it was SIM, you know, computer type stuff. But I had to take all these math classes and other classes that really had nothing to do with that. And again, I struggled to even get a decent grade. So I eventually dropped out, went to work. Godfather’s Pizza, delivering pizzas, which I could do a whole other podcast on that experience. And my best friend’s mom managed a computer store in Evansville, and they had an opening for a delivery guy.
So someone who’s going to deliver computers to companies and individuals and at the same time Godfather’s was like, Hey, you’re a go getter. You want to be a manager? So I was like, do I stay in this restaurant thing and be a pizza manager or do I go and deliver computers? You know, it seems like right now it seems like a duck. You need to go do the computer thing. But I really struggled because I was going to get to be the boss, and I was going to make a lot of money at the pizza place. So eventually, I chose wisely, I believe, and became the delivery guy at CBM Computer Center, which is kind of like a computer land for any older folks listening.
Well, I became friends with the texts that worked at this computer store, and they started calling me Junior Tech because I would go in there and try to help them, and eventually, I was promoted to actual technician. So now I’m fixing people’s computers and computers for business. I’m going on service calls. And one of our big accounts was Bristol-Myers, and for some reason there was some sort of issue they had with our service department. So they sent me out to fix all the problems. Some of the problems were technical. Other problems were just like customer service-type issues. And I brought that account back in good standing, and they rewarded me by making me the boss of the service department. So that was cool.
I was barely 20 years old, and through that, things just kept getting better and better during my three-year term there. But there were rumors that the company was going to be sold, and, you know, the big box-type stores were starting to come around. So the little computer shops, you know, they looked like they might be numbered. So, I got hired in Mount Vernon as the one sole computer technician.
Yeah, I love that journey because I think there’s a lot of people out there who, you know, they feel like they have to go to college for these, like, next steps. And, you know, college isn’t for everybody. And I think that that shift is happening in our culture of just, you know, having good technical knowledge. Can a lot of times be more important than just having a base-level college education. All of the fluff courses that you take. So talking, I want to go back and do a couple of the points. You talked about Commodore 64, your first computer.
Are you just going to the library and finding manuals or I mean, I don’t even know where… Do you start? Because it’s not you, you don’t have Google, you don’t have YouTube videos. Where are you learning how to write code? Yeah, like, where’s that coming from?
I believe it was built into the basic programming where you could. I don’t remember what the command was, but you could issue a command that tells you what all the commands are. And then just through just sheer trial and error, you know, you could look at it if then statement and okay, I think I understand you know if and then you put the variable and then do this. So, I think it was just trial and error.
I don’t know if I had a book. I was a member of the Commodore Computer Club for a while, but I don’t really remember retaining a lot of information from that. So throughout my whole career, it’s been a lot of trial and error, and that’s where it started. Yeah.
And then when you got into high school and you took the computer math course, was that teacher just someone who was passionate about it and actually knew what they were doing? Or was it just kind of like, we need a place to put people in your class? Like what? What was that?
I felt like it was kind of just thrown together. My teacher, I feel like she was maybe handed a curriculum that someone had developed. I remember this being the history of computers and yeah, about that and basic programming language and some other programming languages. So I think, you know, it came from above that we needed. We need to have this computer math class, and yeah, that’s, that’s really where I got started and really got the bug.
So for you probably did that class feel more like what was it more of just like, I’m in this class, I’m going to like, consume this information given to you. But really, are you just messing around on a computer like the whole class basically?
No. There were actual projects that we were asked to, you know, write a program that does this, and, you know, I just I could just get that out quickly. And then I was helping other people in my class, and then they put me in a computer math class. I said I was the only one, but I was in with the computer math one, people that hadn’t taken the class yet. So I was… I was in a class within a class.
Yeah. I’ve heard a couple of people who have been on here talking about classes, building classes, going, Oh, well, we need this person to go somewhere during this period of time, and this is what they’re interested in. So I love that you’ve mentioned a few times about not going the traditional education route.
Was there anybody you know, any teachers or anybody in your life or maybe even that computer company you work for that saw your potential that like helped kind of help you develop and move into that or took a risk on you? Do you have anybody in particular during that first phase that you talked about that you know, helped give you that confidence?
I’d say the senior year of my career at Evansville North High School, I took a data processing class, which was 3 hours a day, and I took that down at the EVC. Annenberg School Operation office downtown. So that was three periods. The teacher there, his name was Curtis Kinney, he taught data processing. So this is where I learned COBOL. And we were, you know, they had a giant mainframe computer there.
And, you know, even though I did struggle in that class just because I don’t know, I’m just not a good student. It’s ironic that I work in a school now. He inspired me to continue on the track I was on, and when I did struggle, he was always there to help me. And I appreciate that man very much.
Yeah, I know. For me, similar, I did, you know, I was going to get my degree and stuff but the traditional education role was always really difficult for me, and it was the same thing. If I was interested in something, I can retain information. I can remember things from like elementary school. I was like, so passionate about. I wasn’t passionate about it. It was really hard for me to retain, you know, it’s like, yeah, in one you’re out the other. Yeah.
So I, you know, those people who look at you because I think sometimes, at least when I was in school or maybe when you were in school as well, you being smart was how many A’s did you get on your report card rather than, Wow, you can process these technical things really well that might not be quantified in all of these different subjects.
Absolutely.
I think that’s important. And I think education, like these new polytechnic high schools, I would have loved that, you know, project-based learning and, oh yeah, and I’m glad we’re seeing more of a movement towards that. And, you know, I’ve talked to a few, you know, even my kids going through school. My math. Yeah, this is so different than what it was like for me.
I wish I could go back.
Yeah. So 34 years, seven months with Mt. Vernon schools.
Wow. That’s me?
Yeah. Yeah, you have a very unique view of probably seeing the first wave of computers in the schools to now where we are, where computers run almost every single aspect of communication operations. Can you just take as much time as you want to talk about maybe the big stages of that transition that you went through?
So when I arrived, like I said, I was in the computer department, and they had just implemented an integrated learning system, which was called Wasatch, named after the Wasatch Mountains. It ran on IBM computers. Um, and on a token ring network, Ethernet token ring. But we also had the Internet networks in the schools. The schools were connected via 9600 baud modems. So there was some connectivity through, you know, dumb terminals in a mainframe so they could do schedules and stuff. So this is 1991, you know, kind of moving forward.
There was a point where we had to decide, do we want to fully implement this IBM token ring network or do we want to go the Ethernet route? That was a big decision. Again, fortunately, we chose wisely because you probably have you ever heard a token ring? Okay, it’s gone.
Sounds like something from Lord of the Rings.
Yeah. So we went the Ethernet route, and back then it was coaxial cable, and now of course it’s category whatever, six, seven connections. So we really spent a lot of time building out the network. And then a few years later, my boss came to me and said, What do you think about this Internet thing? And my boss was the business manager, Loren Evans, at the time, and we developed an Internet pilot program with the University of Southern Indiana. We brought in some trainers, and we let our teachers pilot the Internet.
So we got them on, got them on the Internet, and we had a training day with beach balls, you know, surfing the Web, and wow, the Internet changed everything literally overnight.It seems like we were able to have electronic mail correspondence between staff members where before we were just putting things in the pony or calling people. It really you know, you can imagine what kind of changes the Internet kind of forced for us. And then I got to do things that I never really thought that I would have any, you know, hands-in, you know, content filtering.
So now it’s my job apparently, no one else was going to do it. You know, to, you know, monitor what people were surfing for on the Internet, you know, things that they shouldn’t be. So I just kind of just giggled that I was having to, you know, type in these really bad words that we wanted our content filter to look for. And I believe, like this job, you know, some jobs you get into, and you’re going to do X, Y, and Z, and that’s it. If you walk into a tech role with that mentality, you’re not going to last very long because it’s evolving. It was evolving and will always evolve. You have to evolve with it. So as time progresses, new things come out, and you’ve got to embrace those. Not a lot of people like to embrace change. And as you probably know, some teachers have trouble with that.
So, managing change is something that I was not very good at in the beginning. One of the other big things that happened in EdTech was the implementation of smart classrooms. So interactive whiteboards are document cameras, software touch panels. And one of my early mistakes was that, hey, if we put these in teachers’ classrooms and give them some training, they’re going to love this stuff.
They’re going to, Oh, that happened in silos. It happened in pockets. You’d have those teachers that embrace it. And then other teachers that know that’s not what’s not going to happen. So it really developed over time just the ability to kind of work with teachers from the ground level up instead of coming from the top down and really getting buy-in from them before I move forward with anything.
Yeah. Can you talk through. I think this is good from someone who has the vast amount of experience you have throughout the years. A teacher who maybe is averse to technology change. Where did you have the sense to lead a conversation like that? And how did you let them know how important that was? And for the future of, you know, students?
I would say one of the things we did is we developed a district technology committee that still meets to this day, monthly, and that is the committee is made up of teachers that are put on there by the teachers union. So they get to decide who they put on the committee and then also administrators, curriculum director, and then technology staff.
So that’s our place where we can talk about where we are and where we think we need to be going and really bounce things off, bounce ideas off teachers. And then also, you know, if you’re going to redesign a classroom, I think there might be an inclination to just do it and say, here it is. You’ve really got to get the teacher’s input on that. And I’d say some of our committee members are, you know, I’d say these are teachers that not all of them are computer savvy.
I’d say some of them probably struggle. And you’ve got to have those voices in the room because you’re serving all teachers, the ones that embrace technology and also the ones that struggle and don’t see the value. So, you know, the job is to show the value from the ground up, as I said, and, you know, see where it goes from there. And, you know, technology’s not going to touch every teacher in the same way. You may use it sparingly and successfully, or you may be fully embracing it and using it successfully. So, there’s not like a perfect formula. Yeah, agreed.
So when you had sent me some notes of, you know, kind of your career, you specifically mentioned the transition from group-wise to Google Workspace. And I wanted to know, knowing how much Google Workspaces use now, can you talk about that transition and you brought up a couple like going to Ethernet rather than the token link or is that what it’s called? Token Ring
Can you talk a little bit about how you guys made that decision? Because I’m assuming, I mean, I don’t even know what group voice is, so.
Yeah, have you ever heard of Novell?
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, Novell was a network operating system, and group wise was a product of that same company. And group wise was an email and calendaring program. And we yeah, it’s like if you’re a tech director, you never want to go through a student management system transition more than once. You don’t want to go through an email transition more than once. These are like big changes that touch everyone. And so yeah, the group was to Google basically, we call it Google Apps for Education back in the day was painful. We did it in chunks rather than all at once.
We told folks we’re going to save about two years worth of emails. We’re going to transfer those for you over to Gmail, and we’ve got to get it all done by the next date. So, yeah, it was painful. You know, Google is different, especially when you’re used to group-wise. You would have folders, you could put emails in Gmail, it looks like folders, but it’s really not.
Yeah, it’s just you’re just coding in a different name. So that was a game changer, honestly, you know, just getting people on Gmail and then being in a room where folks are using Google Docs for the first time, and you look up, and you’re in the same document with everyone else in the room, and that was really that just really blew my mind that we can all work in a document at the same time.
It’s funny. That’s a very similar story to almost everybody in technology is the first time they use Google, a Google document at the same time. And it’s like those big little things because I remember the first. So I’m like, why would I use Google? I can use Microsoft. They’re like, You never have to save your document.
And then you’re like, Well, you know, everyone’s lost hours of work at one time in their life. But that I remember that specifically being, and I think those big little things that might get people bought into these courts are like, Oh, this is going to change the world.
Light bulb moment.
Yeah, like we’re a Google shop here, and we constantly are working on Google Docs and Google sheets, like at the same time, and like that amount of communication, you don’t even get with people sitting next to you on your desk because they’re not, you know, you got people talking over each other. It’s like an incredible, you know, transition.
Yeah, it literally changed the world. I mean, the Internet was a game changer. Google Apps for Education was a game changer. And obviously putting devices in our students hands was talking about change. Management was quite a game changer as well. You know.
So, over your 30 years, can you highlight one or a few challenging projects or roles that you took on and maybe which ones were the hardest and how they helped you, how they helped kind of form you into the leader you are today?
Well, I would say one of those would be a failure, and to all those young tech directors out there, I will tell you that it’s okay to fail. It’s how you learn, you know. It’s how our kids learn. You have to let them fail so they can experience consequences and hopefully learn from it. And one of my big failures was, you know, we were doing inventory of all of our technology. And to me it seemed very inefficient just writing things down on paper. And one of my ideas that was brought to the school board was to implement an inventory control system. They approved it, and I bought this very slick system that ran on our file servers in all of our buildings. There were barcode scanners. We put barcodes on the doors that had the room number and then of course barcodes on all the equipment.
But, I left out one critical piece to that whole project was that we didn’t really have the staff to maintain the system. And that was a critical piece to making this system work. So, you know, I learned that you’ve got to look at the whole project and not just let’s not just buy the shiny thing.I think a lot of schools maybe did that 112, one became a thing that they would focus on the device in that. What are we going to do with the device.
Yeah.
So, I would say that failure was one thing that really helped me look at the entire problem we were trying to solve and how we’re going to solve it.
Yeah, I think everyone even me, just with a normal enterprise company, you look at all these tools the software has, it’s going to be like, great. But then, you know, you don’t have the people that you need to run it. We’ve wasted thousands of hours on failed software implementation to the point now where we do so much of vetting and consulting before we ever implement a new software or we develop a software. Because you’re right, it’s like this is like you can have something.
It’s like a nice tool. I heard someone say they were describing Salesforce. They said, Salesforce is like, You’re buying a Porsche, and it shows up, and all it just shows up in boxes full of parts. You know, it’s like, I don’t know how to build a car. Everything’s there, but I don’t know how to make it run. And then I wouldn’t trust it to run after I put it together.
Yeah. No, definitely not for me either.
I think that’s a really good point about your problem. You’ll never make that mistake again. Absolutely. You know, and it’s also, you know, in the beginning and, you know, I don’t know at what stage. I don’t know what stage you did that. But, you know, failing at an early stage is way better than failing when it’s fully implemented. And you’ve paid for all these different things and resources.
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